Are the Baltic states more Germanic or Nordic

AlpinLuke said:

I do repeat that when I was in Norwegian I got the impression to hear a Germanic language ...

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Since Norwegian is a north germanic language, it should not be a surprise if it sounds germanic.

If tha seeas a yow rigwetled, tha mun upskittle it.

That's english, yorkshire dialect to be precise, with the exception of two north germanic words, it is otherwise west germanic.

Window is of course one of the most famous norse words in english. Even the west germanic speakers use latin.

PRM said:

I would not say this to a Lithuanian, since they indeed brought quite a powerful contribution to the Rzeczpospolica ....

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I was referring to the fact that around 1900, Lithuanians made up only a small fraction (2%) of the population of their own capital and largest city. I don't know whether this is an anomaly that can be explained by the catastrophes the city experienced in the 18th century; nevertheless it is a notable fact.

It is true though that the situation in Lithuania was different from Latvia and Estonia, since there was a Lithuanian elite that for centuries determined the fate of their country, whereas in Latvia and Estonia it was more Baltic Germans and later Russians that governed the country.

greatstreetwarrior said:

Are Estonia, Lithuania and Latvia more Germanic or are they more Nordic?

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They are much more Baltic than anything

greatstreetwarrior said:

Are Estonia, Lithuania and Latvia more Germanic or are they more Nordic?

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After the Russification process under the Soviet Union, I think it would be important to add the option "Slavic".

greatstreetwarrior said:

Are Estonia, Lithuania and Latvia more Germanic or are they more Nordic?

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First off, Nordic is Germanic. Second off, the Baltic languages have their own category so the Baltic states are only related to Germanic stuff due to the fact that both groups are Indo-European.

Nord is Germanic actually, but the nations you mentioned are not Germanic. Estonia is Finno-Ugric, but Lithuania and Latvia is Baltic. They have their own ethnic group. In terms of culture, they are close to Scandinavians, but in terms of ethnicity, they are somewhat related to the Slavic people, if anything.

Nordic is germanic, as many have already pointed out. One could argue that these three nations have been heavily influenced by the german world and the nordic world over the centuries if not even a millenia. They share some traits in common with the nordic world other than their northerly location and their place in the baltic sea. I know estonia is doing everything it can to be part of the nordic world, while lithuania historically has a lot more in common with poland than with it's northern baltic neighbours (Lithuania is catholic while the other two nations historically have been lutheran). I wouldn't add the slavic component just yet because it is blatantly evident it's a bit of an 'imported' (ie by force by the soviet union) cultural identity of these nations who have probably never been happier than current times, what with their independence and all that. Their history at least in recent memory is quite tragic in my opinion, what imperial russia and then the soviet union did to these lands makes one appreciate that they even exist.

mark87 said:

Nordic is germanic, as many have already pointed out. One could argue that these three nations have been heavily influenced by the german world and the nordic world over the centuries if not even a millenia.

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It is a matter of keen debate as to whether the germanic world arose out of the Nordic Bronze Age or the Jastorf Culture in northern Germany. There is no concensus.

Rodger said:

Like others,I agree the Baltic states can't be easily defined. Despite the Teutonic Knights efforts, the Balts themselves weren't completely eliminated. People such as the Vikings, Polish (especially on Lithuania), Russians and Germans have all left their genetic and cultural marks.

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So far I know there were no migrations from Poland to Lithuania. So called Lithuanian Poles are descendants of Lithuanians who have adopted Polish language and culture since the 14th century when was made first Polish-Lithuanian union and when Lithuanians adopted western christianity. On the contrary - after WW2 large numbers of Lithuanians (Polish speaking Lithuanians) were expelled from Lithuania by Soviet Union to Poland.

"Nordic" or "Northerners" are usually associated with high stature and in terms of height, Balts are among the taller peoples in Europe:

Distribution of average male height in Europe:



Source: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1570677X14000665

I was surprised by this rather short stature of the English males according to this data, on the other hand. But wikipedia confirms:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_height#Average_height_around_the_world

Viriathus said:

"Nordic" or "Northerners" are usually associated with high stature and in terms of height, Balts are among the taller peoples in Europe:

Distribution of average male height in Europe:

Source: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1570677X14000665

I was surprised by this rather short stature of the English males according to this data, on the other hand. But wikipedia confirms:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_height#Average_height_around_the_world

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Ukraine also surprised me, I thought they were taller. But they are a poor country, so it might be caused by poor nutrition.

On the other hand, these South Slavic countries with very tall people are also not so rich. So maybe poor nutrition is no excuse.

Viriathus said:

Ukraine also surprised me, I thought they were taller. But they are a poor country, so it might be caused by poor nutrition.

On the other hand, these South Slavic countries with very tall people are also not so rich. So maybe poor nutrition is no excuse.

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Ukraine really surprised me. It's not a poor country, and malnutrition is not a problem at all.

On the other hand, these South Slavic countries with very tall people are also not so rich. So maybe poor nutrition is no excuse.

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Montenegrins and Herzegovinians are well known for their height.

Basically, mountains.

Viriathus said:

"Nordic" or "Northerners" are usually associated with high stature and in terms of height, Balts are among the taller peoples in Europe:

Distribution of average male height in Europe:

Source: The role of nutrition and genetics as key determinants of the positive height trend

I was surprised by this rather short stature of the English males according to this data, on the other hand. But wikipedia confirms:

Human height - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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I have read that English population lost a lot of height during industrial revolution. Basically they used to be taller, but because of horribly conditions in cities during revolution lost quite a bit of height. This may be remaining cause, with time all countries with good diet should even out in height.

greatstreetwarrior said:

Are Estonia, Lithuania and Latvia more Germanic or are they more Nordic?

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It`s more complicated than this. In Medieval times there were four tribes, basically shamanists I believe, living in this area of the Baltic; Latgallians, Couroioans, Selonians and Semigallians.
Latvia is named after the Latgallians and was mixed with Fins known as Livonians from early on. The Latvian language is Indo-European but Livonian is still spoken there, and that is of course quite close to Finnish. Later Lativa has been under Polish; Swedish, German/Teutonic and Russian control. The German element was wiped out in WWII but many Latvians still speak Russian.
Lithuania is a bit different because it was united quite early, although from the same tribal origins as Latvia. For a time Lithuania was the largest and most powerful country in Eastern Europe, stretching from the Baltic to the Black Sea. This Medieval imperialist past still lingers somewhat there, just as it does in Poland. The Lithuanian language is very similar to Latvian and also an Indo European language.
Estonian is a Finnish language. The Swedes (Who ruled Finland until quite recently) always insisted that the south coast of the Gulf of Finland belonged to them because they considered the Estonians Finnish. St Petersburg was in fact originally founded where it is by Russia to demonstrate against these Swedish claims to the Baltic Sea.

So in short none of these people are either Nordic or Germanic linguistically. They are Indo-Europeans, except the Estonians who are Finnish-Ugric. But as with most European history this is an oversimplification. All these countries have spent centuries under the domination of more powerful neighbors for centuries and centuries. Early on the Baltic heathens were customary summer targets for various micro crusades the HRE emperors would arrange more or less for propaganda purposes. If we go back to about 1200AD this pagan control of the southern Baltic stretched as far west as Brandenburg and Schwerin (North of Berlin). By about 1400 they had almost all been either converted or wiped out, as in most other places in Europe.
In this general context the German orders of Teuton were in the general area of the modern Baltic states in 13th century and provided considerable German influence. The Teutons were basically the German crusader order against Baltic pagans. So many German junkers held estates in particularly Latvia until the Red Army rolled into town in 44-45 and it had all been partly German for many centuries. And there are also powerful Polish, Swedish and Russian influences, and of course there is the fact that Lithuania once conquered all of this area to consider. All this has as usual created a wonderfully European hodgepodge of little groups of stubborn people speaking different languages. None of which are Germanic.

Nicator said:

Montenegrins and Herzegovinians are well known for their height.

Basically, mountains.

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What's the Swiss excuse, then?

Cultural selection I think more than Darwinian pressure explains Dinaric height?

East Baltic Countries

East Baltic Countries (not Baltic States), which are not states, but countries, have not much in common despite their small size and some genetics. No one says "Low States" or "North Sea Republics" for BeNeLux as an example. They are not Germanic, but they do have a tiny bit of Germanic genetics. Latvia has common religion with both Estonia and Lithuania, while Lithuania has nothing in common with Estonia except genetics. Talking about Lithuania, at some point in time Lithuania was larger than Poland. Lithuanian culture and language are very distinct, unlike any other (except Latvian), which despite attempt to pair it with Slavic, it is not. Lithuanian language has a couple hundred words that are somehow related with Slavic, which could be either borrowing from either side and even common ancestry from thousands of years ago when most Europeans were much closer related. Romanian (Romance group) language has more common words with Slavic languages than Lithuanian does. Think about it. Those fools of convenience who couple Lithuanians with Slavs do it out of pure convenience and out of lack of deep knowledge. Baltic or Lithuanian language(s) have as much in common with Latin and Germanic languages as they do with Slavic and Greek - some, but not much. Because small tiny nations usually get absorbed and abused, Lithuania as a very distinct culture and language because of its recent past of the past 200 years get a "Russian" or "Slavic" label, which is absolutely wrong. If you study and investigate Lithuanian language, you will see that apart froma couple hundred similar words it has nothing in common with Slavic, Germanic or Latin languages. It is a language and a (Baltic) language group all on its own. Not Balto-Slavic and not Balto-Germanic and not Balto-Hellenic ior Balto-Latino. Not even Balto-Finnic. It is Baltic. Period. Take a Lithuanian-Russian Dictionary and compare words and you will see. No one groups Germany and France into one Franco-Germanic linguistic group even that they have much in common, especially the English and the French (Latin). Even that English has a LOT MORE in common with French, Spanish, Portuguese than Lithuanian has in common with Slavic languages. Much more. So there should be Franco-Germanic group is much more likely than Balto-Slavic idiocy that is created for a mere purpose of insult. Get a life, you do not place German and Polish languages into one group just because they are neighbours.

Example for comparison purpose:

Lithuanian: Atvaziavo vyras pasiimti savo vaiku, bet surado tik shuni.
Russian: Priekhal muzhchina zabrat' svoix detey, no nashyol tol´ko sobaku.
Englisce: Man arrived to pick his children up, but found only a dog.

Well, Estonia is Finno-Ugric in language, closest to Finnish and the two languages are mutually intelligible. The Estonians are also religiously Lutheran Protestants, like the Finns — and the Swedes, and the Danes and Norwegians. Linguistically both Estonian and Finnish are very different from Scandinavian, Germanic or even Indoeuropean languages.

While Latvian and Lithuanian are linguistically Baltic, and so quite different from Estonian. And Lithuania is Catholic. Latvia seems pretty evenly divided between Lutheran, Orthodox and Catholic (certain preponderance for Lutheranism).

So, linguistically, no they are rather "un-Germanic" overall. Religiously otoh, Estonia and to a certain extent Latvia shares a religious history with Scandinavia and northern Germany — not least because they share history. Lithuania otoh doesn't share that — they're Catholic and have rather more in common with Polish history.

^ I agree that the Balto-Slavic label was created by Russian and Polish imperialists to suppress the Balts.

Balto-Slavic makes as much sense as Greco-Armenian.

Finns aren't Germanic. Finnish isn't a Germanic language, even though the Norse must have raided, traded and settled there. This must have been Danes, Swedes and Norwegian Norse.