General questions about Ancient Chinese firearms or any other Ancient Chinese weapon

Haakbus · Oct 6, 2013

This type of iron-hooped cannon was also commonly used during the Ming era

Obviously they would have been mounted on wheeled carriages of some sort instead of those blocks. The ones with hoops I believe are Great General cannons, but I don't know about the other two.

Rusted Ming cannons unearthed in Hebei province, the largest one was probably the so-called "Great General Cannon"

Actually the larger one looks to me like a Hongyi cannon, and the other two are two different sizes of Great General, maybe?

Mrbsct · Oct 6, 2013

How did the Qin and Han armies form up for battle? Would they line up in a straight line, spears in the center, halberds on the flanks, and crossbows in the rear?

How did Han cavalry fight?

HackneyedScribe · Oct 6, 2013

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How did the Qin and Han armies form up for battle? Would they line up in a straight line, spears in the center, halberds on the flanks, and crossbows in the rear?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]In "Military Commands", written by ZhugeLiang (late Han-3Kingdoms), we have an interesting passage where the crossbowmen shoot over the heads of crouched halbadiers and spearmen: When the enemy comes to the deer-barricades, the soldiers must hold their position behind them and thrust with spear and halberds. They must not stand as rising would hinder the shooting of the crossbowmen.

For Ancient Chinese formations I recommend Sun Bin's Art of War or the Six Secret Teachings. A snippet of the Six Secret Teachings goes like this:

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King Wu asked Tai Gong:"What about when infantry engage in battle with chariots and cavalry?"
Tai Gong replied:"When infantry engage in battle with chariots and cavalry, they must rely on hills and mounds, ravines and defiles. The long weapons and strong crossbow should occupy the fore; the short weapons and weak crossbow should occupy the rear, firing and resting in turn. Even if large numbers of the enemy’s chariots and cavalry should arrive, they must maintain a solid formation and fight intensely while skilled soldiers and strong crossbowmen prepare against attacks from the rear."
King Wu said:"Suppose there are no hills or mounds, ravines or defiles. The enemy arrives, and it is both numerous and martial. Their chariots and cavalry outflank us on both sides, and they are making sudden thrusts against our front and rear positions. Our army are terrified and fleeing in chaotic defeat. What should we do?"
Tai Gong replied:"Order our officers and troops to set up the chevaux-de-frise and wooden caltrops, arraying the oxen and horses into units, and place in their midst, and have them established a four sided martial assault formation. When you see the enemy’s chariots and cavalry are about to advance, our men should evenly spread out the chevaux-de-frise and caltrops and dig ditches at the back of it. Making them five feet deep and wide. It is called the ‘Cage of Fate’.
Chariots should be arrayed as ramparts and pushed forward and back. Whenever they stop, set then up as fortifications. Our skilled soldiers and strong crossbowmen should defend the left and right flanks. Afterward, order our army to fervently fight without respite."
"Excellent!" said King Wu.

Mrbsct · Oct 6, 2013

How would the cavalry fight of lets say 50,000 army at Mohei? would they be mainly skirmishers with crossbows or shock cavalry with halberds?

purakjelia · Oct 6, 2013

Mrbsct said:
How did the Qin and Han armies form up for battle? Would they line up in a straight line, spears in the center, halberds on the flanks, and crossbows in the rear?

How did Han cavalry fight?

We do have many surviving artifacts of Qin and Han weapons, but unfortunately we have very little records of what formations did they use.

From the Han clay figurines and from the few passages that do survive, we could deduce that Han cavalry was mostly light cavalry, worn a lamellar vest that only covered their chest and belly, and armed with iron halberds and single-edged iron sabres. Han cavalrymen adopted Xiongnu tactics and they emphasized on mobility. The famous Han general Huo Qubing's blitzkrieg cavalry attack on Xiongnu is the best example. Huo and his cavalrymen were advancing deep into Xiongnu territory, caught the Xiongnu completely off guard.

Han infantrymen used war wagons and crossbows to defend against Xiongnu cavalry. Records suggest that another famous Han general Wei Qing deployed a type of war wagon called Wu Gang cart when fighting against Xiongnu. This cart was probably mounted with large shields and spears.

Haakbus · Dec 7, 2013

Concerning Chinese cannons of the 1500s-1600s:

Apparently, the name "Great General Cannon" dàjiàngjūnpào (大將軍砲) was a general term for a large cannon. Earlier on, they looked like the cannon in the first picture (there were also names like First and Second General, but I'm not sure exactly what they referred to).

EDIT: This picture won't show up for me (I don't know about anybody else), but I couldn't find another good picture of a Chinese Great General cannon.
The one below is a Great General cannon, but it's at a Korean museum, so I don't know how different it is from the Chinese version (I don't think much if really at all).

Since the name "Great General" was a general term, it sometimes applied to large breechloaders such as this.

wKgBtE-aKTHK4PE-AAF6bu5abP038.groupinfo.w600.jpeg

After the introduction of the "Red Barbarian Cannon" hóngyīpào (紅衣炮) around 1630 from the Netherlands, the Great General cannons began to be tremendously influence by them, and came to look more like the cannon in the third picture. Some of the older, pre-European Great Generals may have still been used on a small scale.

Small breechloaders (originally from Portugal) were called "Frankish (cannons)" fúlángjī (佛狼機).

There was also a mortar-like cannon called the "Crouching Tiger" hǔdūnpào (虎蹲砲).

wKgBtE-aKTHjMjc4AAGXaO21Wnk66.ginfowlink.w600.jpeg

YouLoveMeYouKnowIt · Dec 7, 2013

purakjelia said:
I find that many members on this forum are somewhat familiar with European or Japanese weapons, but very few are familiar with Ancient Chinese military history, armors, and weapons. Some people still blindly assume that Ancient Chinese armies were just a mob of peasants who fought without any armor.

There are people who would assume that ancient and medieval Chinese armies were just armour-less peasant mobs but in fact they had standardized armour and also weapons which were forged with unrivaled metal working quality, skill, and sophistication.

purakjelia said:
In the film the Assassins they portrayed Three Kingdoms' armor like this, LOL

It happens a lot in films, especially in ones that clearly have a semi-fantasy element. This film was probably trying to appeal to the audience or win some kind of best wardrobe award. Part of the film industry is art. The New Romance of Three Kingdoms armor is from a later time in Chinese history. The Old RotK is accurate, but clearly it was produced on much lower budget than needed to accurately portray the armour.

Films like Red Cliffs and Emperor and Assassins and drama series like Han Wu Da Di all do a great job in accurately presenting ancient Chinese armor.

mesopotamia-man said:
Can you please explain what protection the red/purple headwear would have provided in the picture you said was the more accurate depiction of the armour. Is it a helmet or was it just for show?

Practically all Chinese soldier would have worn something on their head. Cap (not sure if purple or pink is the right colour but meh), bandana, or whatever to tightly bind their rather long hair. The Hittites don't tie their hair up in battle and the Egyptians would pull them off their chariots and slit their throats.

YouLoveMeYouKnowIt · Dec 7, 2013

Not sure if stone armour was meant for battle or ceremonial purposes.

mazzatenta-o-louis-stone-armor-woven-with-copper-wire-was-found-near-the-terrcotta-army.jpg

Haakbus · Dec 7, 2013

YouLoveMeYouKnowIt said:
Not sure if stone armour was meant for battle or ceremonial purposes.

Is that stone armor? I don't think stone armor was used in actual battle, but maybe for ceremonial use. The basic design if it was in metal (or maybe boiled leather) would be used in battle though.

YouLoveMeYouKnowIt · Dec 7, 2013

Haakbus said:
Is that stone armor? I don't think stone armor was used in actual battle, but maybe for ceremonial use. The basic design if it was in metal (or maybe boiled leather) would be used in battle though.

Yeah considering there's only one excavated its unlikely it was meant for battle. A sword cut isn't going to do well against stone but the weight would probably put too much stress and demand on the endurance of the soldier to make it worth wearing.

Haakbus · Dec 7, 2013

Here is a diorama in a Chinese museum of the First Battle of Tamao in 1521 where they defeated the Portuguese.

I'm not sure how accurate it is, so I'm somewhat wary about it. The cannons I think are accurate, although they probably would be using several types rather than just a single type. They also would probably be arranged in a much more orderly fashion, and not let the cannonballs roll around in the deck!

YouLoveMeYouKnowIt · Dec 7, 2013

Looking at the carefully they have baskets for the cannonballs so I think the artist deliberately rolled down out to show the audience.

Look at the background that seems like a demolition ship or some kind of boarding party attempting to scale the ship.

Bart Dale · Dec 7, 2013

YouLoveMeYouKnowIt said:
It happens a lot in films, especially in ones that clearly have a semi-fantasy element. This film was probably trying to appeal to the audience or win some kind of best wardrobe award. Part of the film industry is art. The New Romance of Three Kingdoms armor is from a later time in Chinese history. The Old RotK is accurate, but clearly it was produced on much lower budget than needed to accurately portray the armour.

Also in movies, it frequently about convenvience and cost. If you have armour lying around from the last Lord of the Ring movie, it is cheaper to modify it to give it a somewhat "Chinese" look, than to actual make new authentic looking armor.

Aetius · Dec 7, 2013

A very large painting for a 'battle' so insignificant.

YouLoveMeYouKnowIt · Dec 7, 2013

Aetius said:
A very large painting for a 'battle' so insignificant.

Why did you quote the word "battle?"

Haakbus · Dec 7, 2013

Why did you quote the word "battle?"

Because it isn't a battle if it's a Chinese victory against a European nation. (I'm being sarcastic)

By the way, does anyone know where I can find accurate info on either of the two battles of Tamao?

A very large painting for a 'battle' so insignificant.

Even if it isn't significant to Europe, it was significant to the Chinese.

Aetius · Dec 7, 2013

YouLoveMeYouKnowIt said:
Why did you quote the word "battle?"

Because it wasn't really one?

Haakbus · Dec 7, 2013

If it's not a battle, what is it?

Aetius · Dec 7, 2013

Haakbus said:
Even if it isn't significant to Europe, it was significant to the Chinese.

I doubt that, too. From what I have read online my impression is that this skirmish was lifted from historical obscurity centuries after it happened to lift the spirits of some Chinese readers who would have found otherwise empty pages describing Chinese naval successes against European forces.

I really don't want to go into details about the Portuguese maintaining the largest seaborne empire of the earth, from the Atlantic via the Indian Ocean to the Pacific, and that China was a sideshow where they naturally felt the immanent constraints of space and logistics the strongest. And this was done by a nation of 500,000-1,000,000 which did not even play second fiddle in the Europe theatre.

YouLoveMeYouKnowIt · Dec 7, 2013

Haakbus said:
By the way, does anyone know where I can find accurate info on either of the two battles of Tamao?

Chinese history is nearly nonexistent in a worthwhile manner in the West unless you diligently dig into actual history books. If you want to actually read about Chinese battles of lesser significance, that is hard to do in English on the Internet. The best I can think of is going on Baidu and read Chinese documents.

Haakbus said:
Even if it isn't significant to Europe, it was significant to the Chinese.

For the Chinese it wasn't significant either. Responding with military force when a foreigner comes in disrespecting your sovereignty is natural for everyone.

Haakbus said:
If it's not a battle, what is it?

It is a battle. Insignificant, but a battle. If a dozen ships would volley cannon balls at each other, its a battle.

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General questions about Ancient Chinese firearms or any other Ancient Chinese weapon

Haakbus

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Haakbus

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