Main cultural differences between China and Japan

Naomasa298 · Oct 7, 2013

purakjelia said:
Han and Tang were certainly not closed empires

I wasn't referring to the Han and the Tang. It may have been unclear in my post, but I intended to refer to the regimes in place in the two countries in the 19th century.

purakjelia · Oct 7, 2013

Naomasa298 said:
I wasn't referring to the Han and the Tang. It may have been unclear in my post, but I intended to refer to the regimes in place in the two countries in the 19th century.

Read my entire post please. I know what you were referring to, and I have given you my reason.

Meiji was a Japanese regime, of course Japanese bureaucrats wanted to see their nation to become stronger, and there was a strong incentive to reform in Japan.

On the other hand, Qing was a Manchurian regime, and the Qing ruling class was very reluctant to reform, because they were afraid that once the Han Chinese gained western technology, it would be too difficult to keep the Han Chinese under Manchurian control.

This was the most important difference between China and Japan at the 19th century, I don't understand why you fail to see this difference.

Naomasa298 · Oct 7, 2013

purakjelia said:
Read my entire post please. I know what you were referring to, and I have given you my reason.

I read your post. If you knew what I was referring to, I fail to see why you felt the need to point the above out, given that it had nothing to do with what I was talking about.

dagul · Oct 7, 2013

michael mills said:
If you are not familiar, as you say, then you are in no position to make an informed comment on the subject.

When Japanese travelled to China and Korea in the 1860s, for the first time since the closure of Japan in the early 17th Century, one of their strongest impressions was of the squalor in which the people lived, which contrasted strongly with the cult of cleanliness which was so important in their own culture.

I suggest you read this book by the highly respected scholar Peter Duus:

"The abacus and the Sword: The Japanese Penetration of Korea, 1895-1910" (published by University of California Press, Berkeley, 1995).

Duus goes into quite some detail about how the low standards of bodily hygiene among Koreans contributed to the negative image that Japanese visitors gained of that people.

I agree with you on this aspect. The Japanese people are really into hygiene and I can state being an Asian myself. They are far more better than the Chinese and Koreans on that aspect.

purakjelia · Oct 7, 2013

I feel that this thread has been turning into a China bashing and Korea bashing thread.

How much do you know about Chinese history or Korean history, japanophiles? Just because you know something about Japan or you like Japan does not mean that you also know everything about China and Korea.

I seldom talk about samurai or ninja or Japanese history, because I simply don't know very well about them. I know that I have to learn more before talking about those subject matters.

However, some japanophiles here are acting like they know everything about China and Korea and they often speak with an authoritative attitude which I really dislike.

I have met a few Japanese in person. They knew I'm Chinese, and they tried to speak Chinese with me. Even though they might not like Chinese, but they still showed me the due respect and politeness. That's one thing that I like about Japanese people, and that's the reason why some disrespectful japanophiles here could never become real Japanese.

You should not make remarks about someone else's culture when you really don't have any clues about this culture.

Naomasa298 · Oct 7, 2013

purakjelia said:
How much do you know about Chinese history or Korean history, japanophiles? Just because you know something about Japan or you like Japan does not mean that you also know everything about China and Korea.

Who's been bashing China and Korea? Which posts, specifically?

Now, if your little rant is aimed at me, then my answer to your questions are:

How much do I know about Korean history? Very little.

How much do I know about Chinese history? More than you think, since my interest in Chinese history predates my interest in Japanese history.

purakjelia · Oct 7, 2013

Naomasa298 said:
Who's been bashing China and Korea? Which posts, specifically?

Now, if your little rant is aimed at me, then my answer to your questions are:

How much do I know about Korean history? Very little.

How much do I know about Chinese history? More than you think, since my interest in Chinese history predates my interest in Japanese history.

I was talking more specifically about michael mills and dagul.

Don't take everything personally. I know that we have different opinions about Chinese history, but at least you showed the respect.

purakjelia · Oct 7, 2013

In my opinion, China's downfall should be in part linked with Mongol and Manchu.

I'm not saying that we should put all the blames on them, but the Manchurian ruling class in the late 19th century should be at least partially responsible for China's stagnation and decline.

Japan did not have this problem. Japan is an archipelago isolated from mainland nomads, and thus they were able to preserve their distinct culture and sense of identity.

Wenge · Oct 7, 2013

dagul said:
I agree with you on this aspect. The Japanese people are really into hygiene and I can state being an Asian myself. They are far more better than the Chinese and Koreans on that aspect.

Of all the people I've ever met the people from the Philippines have the best personal hygiene of any of them.

Thegn Ansgar · Oct 7, 2013

michael mills said:
If you are not familiar, as you say, then you are in no position to make an informed comment on the subject.

When Japanese travelled to China and Korea in the 1860s, for the first time since the closure of Japan in the early 17th Century, one of their strongest impressions was of the squalor in which the people lived, which contrasted strongly with the cult of cleanliness which was so important in their own culture.

I suggest you read this book by the highly respected scholar Peter Duus:

"The abacus and the Sword: The Japanese Penetration of Korea, 1895-1910" (published by University of California Press, Berkeley, 1995).

Duus goes into quite some detail about how the low standards of bodily hygiene among Koreans contributed to the negative image that Japanese visitors gained of that people.

There was plenty of squalor in Japan throughout most of its history. This "cult of cleanliness" is predominantly a myth applied to an entire group of people. It was the ruling class (samurai (and only high ranking ones at that) and nobility) which had this emphasis on cleanliness.

It was not very common outside of the upper echelons of society. Farmers, ronin, artisans, even monks to some extent did not entirely place any noticeable emphasis on hygiene. Rural Japanese people were considered by visiting Europeans, and the upper classes as being dirty and unclean.

fangqingming · Oct 7, 2013

@dagul and michel mills

in fact, in ancient time, chinese people have more hygiene level in asia even in the the whole world.

in about 3th century BC, the whole chinese social had shaped formally clean culture, the shower time have obviously standard, even every 5 days people have one holiday for shower time.

chinese hygiene level reduce a lot in recent century, parts for the qing dynasty's bad influence, parts for the bad country situation and bad living way.

but japan became good hygiene level after meiji period, korea's mordern development is more ealry and more rich than china too, that both improve the hygiene level.

Ps, today westerners who have high hygiene level today, even don't take a shower in amost whole life. one country must have better hygiene level when the country have better living way and richer.

Starstrucked · Oct 7, 2013

michael mills said:
If you are not familiar, as you say, then you are in no position to make an informed comment on the subject.

When Japanese travelled to China and Korea in the 1860s, for the first time since the closure of Japan in the early 17th Century, one of their strongest impressions was of the squalor in which the people lived, which contrasted strongly with the cult of cleanliness which was so important in their own culture.

I suggest you read this book by the highly respected scholar Peter Duus:

"The abacus and the Sword: The Japanese Penetration of Korea, 1895-1910" (published by University of California Press, Berkeley, 1995).

Duus goes into quite some detail about how the low standards of bodily hygiene among Koreans contributed to the negative image that Japanese visitors gained of that people.

If we took your logic then no one can truly debate any period of history as many facts and evidences have been lost during the ages, and i may have said i was unfamiliar but never clueless on the subject

The book you have suggested only highlights a historical Korean hygiene situation but not the current one and therefore you cannot correlate the Korean empire citizens attitude to hygiene, when even the great powers back then couldn't provide hot water to each citizen, to the current Korea which has modernized.

You have chosen to ignore my statement which condemns your ignorant generalization of the current Chinese and Korean people, I think we all know why, not unless you have sniffed and asked every 1.3 billion Chinese and 80 million Korean can you make such a generalizing statement

michael mills · Oct 7, 2013

For heaven's sake, Starstrucked, look again at what I originally wrote (post 14 on page 2 of this thread, if you want to check):

They have also historically placed a much higher cultural value on bodily hygiene than did the Chinese and Koreans.

Even the poorest Japanese communities had their bath-houses and almost made a fetish of cleanliness.

With the modernisation of China and Korea, one would expect standards of hygiene to rise and this particular cultural difference to fade away.

heylouis · Oct 7, 2013

Japan is a resource limited country, so Japanese born with a tension of pressure. that make them more unit, more motivated
but Chinese think we have plenty of resource and people(which actually is wrong about resource). so Chinese never fear of fight with Chinese ourselves, and less planned than Japanese.

but I like that...
hehe, once exposed to sun light, you know which is dark which is bright. and self-fighting, just have a limit then everything is okay.
oh, and Chinese is actually less nationlism than some of us seem to be.

Danny.T · Oct 7, 2013

Japan is gifted in natural scenery with lots of rain and short streams of clean water. So Japanese are lucky enough to afford a bath in tubs each day. This is unimaginable to households in arid Chinese lands where a family member may travel by foot for 2 or 3 hours just to pick up a few buckets of water. Not to speak of the frquent yellow dust blown from Gobi desert or from the Loses platau.
Only southern Chinese with a web of rivers and streams can enjoy a daily bath.
It all depends on the habitat and the mentality of people. Chinese and Indian both can endure a less pleasant environment，both think that dirtiness is part of nature，part of the Yin-Yang . The world is a mix of both beauty and ugliness at the same time in reality.
When the preaent civilization returns to stone age，the Chinese still live. This is solely my opinion，other Chinese may not agree with me.

heylouis · Oct 7, 2013

why bath would become a hot topic here...?
is it a culture difference between Chinese and other place...
of cause bath is important to keep clean, but if people don't bath every day, that doesn't mean they do not want to be clean. they may be busy, maybe they lack water, maybe electricity is expensive.....
one thing need to know is, far before western world drink clean water(they had to use alcohol as a substitute), Chinese already drink clean boiled water.

Wenge · Oct 7, 2013

The one thing I wish the Chinese would do is brush their teeth. I can stand the body odor that comes from the food they eat but what I cannot stand is to be in a crowded place, and every place is crowded in China, and smell the garlic and peanut oil breath of a hoard of people.

heylouis · Oct 7, 2013

Wenge said:
The one thing I wish the Chinese would do is brush their teeth. I can stand the body odor that comes from the food they eat but what I cannot stand is to be in a crowded place, and every place is crowded in China, and smell the garlic and peanut oil breath of a hoard of people.

even poorest Chinese people brush teeth...
what is smelly actually depend on the people. like we Hans eat pork, we think pork have no smell, but indeed some Huis think the pork even pork production are smelly, even maybe that is not a religious reason.

I personally think if the white people can use less perfume that would be better...

rocket7777 · Oct 7, 2013

fangqingming said:
@dagul and michel mills

in fact, in ancient time, chinese people have more hygiene level in asia even in the the whole world.

in about 3th century BC, the whole chinese social had shaped formally clean culture, the shower time have obviously standard, even every 5 days people have one holiday for shower time.

chinese hygiene level reduce a lot in recent century, parts for the qing dynasty's bad influence, parts for the bad country situation and bad living way.

but japan became good hygiene level after meiji period, korea's mordern development is more ealry and more rich than china too, that both improve the hygiene level.

Ps, today westerners who have high hygiene level today, even don't take a shower in amost whole life. one country must have better hygiene level when the country have better living way and richer.

Kind of interesting that 3rd centy is around when han came to power.
Migrants/refugees brought very good engineering to japan's major cities with good water/sewerage design.
During edo period, japan had very good recycle system and I was shocked that poor farmer PAID for scat to make manure from.
Other weird fact was black tooth was higher class and it prevented tooth decay.

During occupation of korea, japan modernized as well as planted 500 million plants.

Wenge · Oct 7, 2013

rocket7777 said:
Kind of interesting that 3rd centy is around when han came to power.
Migrants/refugees brought very good engineering to japan's major cities with good water/sewerage design.
During edo period, japan had very good recycle system and I was shocked that poor farmer PAID for scat to make manure from.
Other weird fact was black tooth was higher class and it prevented tooth decay.

During occupation of korea, japan modernized as well as planted 500 million plants.

The Han came into power in the 2nd Century B.C. or B.C.E.

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Main cultural differences between China and Japan

Naomasa298

purakjelia

Naomasa298

dagul

purakjelia

Naomasa298

purakjelia

purakjelia

Wenge

Thegn Ansgar

fangqingming

Starstrucked

michael mills

heylouis

Danny.T

heylouis

Wenge

heylouis

rocket7777

Wenge

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