The Good Things the Roman Empire Did.

Joined Apr 2009
4,466 Posts | 22+
Alabama, USA
I have a very particular bias against Ancient Rome because of their atrocities and warring across Europe, so it's ironic that I'm gonna be taking a class next semester that deals with Greek/Roman culture.

The Greek culture part, I look forward with joy. Roman? Not so much.

So, enlighten me about Roman culture. What did they do that was good (besides the aqueducts) besides being a war-crazed civilization hellbent on crushing Europe?

I'm ready to learn!
 
Joined Aug 2009
5,747 Posts | 10+
Belgium
I have a very particular bias against Ancient Rome because of their atrocities and warring across Europe, ...

I'm ready to learn!

Honestly: who never did? Tell me about this mythical classical civilisation of Utopia to whom war was but a fairytail of times past...
 
Joined Apr 2009
4,466 Posts | 22+
Alabama, USA
*reverts back to color that is easy on eyeballs*

Canada? :p

Okay, okay, I admit it. I love Egypt and Greece so I don't like Rome because they conquered my two favorite civilizations. XD

That and the whole torturing/maiming of people who didn't want to worship Roman gods, having women and children tortured/killed/fed to lions. Did Egypt and Greece do such things??

...I'm living in a fantasy world where Egypt and Greece were these two innocent, never-did-horrible-things civilizations, correct?

I mean, I know the Egyptians fought the Nubians, the Lybians, etc, but did they go around maiming and killing innocents? I know Greece (in particular, Sparta) fought the Persian Empire a bunch.
 
Joined Mar 2011
775 Posts | 30+
Midwest
Apart from the sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us? Not a damn thing!

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExWfh6sGyso"]YouTube - ‪What have the Romans ever done for us‬‏[/ame]
 
Joined Aug 2009
5,747 Posts | 10+
Belgium
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That and the whole torturing/maiming of people who didn't want to worship Roman gods, having women and children tortured/killed/fed to lions. Did Egypt and Greece do such things??

You are going to judge a 1000 years of civilisation by one negative aspect that was limited in both space and time?

...I'm living in a fantasy world where Egypt and Greece were these two innocent, never-did-horrible-things civilizations, correct?

I mean, I know the Egyptians fought the Nubians, the Lybians, etc, but did they go around maiming and killing innocents? I know Greece (in particular, Sparta) fought the Persian Empire a bunch.

Killing innocents... what constitutes an innocent to you? You think the Greek and Egyptian armies never made a single civilian casualty? For starters the whole distinction and the term civilian is somewhat aberrant. I suppose you mean people who weren't involved in battles? People that fell victim to the sack of a town? Please... as if the Romans were the only one to ever sack towns and kill """innocents"""... You familiar with the Greeks on Sicily? Wars against Carthage? Alexander in the east? Stuff like that. There is a lot more of course, sure, when Greeks fought amongst each other things tended to be more... ehm... well... yeah... 'civil', but all bets are off when fighting the barbarian right. If you're blind to these rather obvious facts, then yes, you live in a fantasy world. I suggest for starters that a good book on the subject matter is "War and Peace in the Ancient World" by K. Raaflaub (ed.), deals with a miriad of civiliations/religions all over the world ranging from 3000 BCE to 632 CE (+ the Precolumbian Meso-American civs and the Iroquis), you might find it enlightening. And no, of course, the Romans were pretty hardcore when they felt the need to, but the others weren't loveydovey because of that.
 
Joined May 2011
265 Posts | 0+
Bristol, U.K
I suppose you can argue that the Romans encouraged integration if nothing else.
 
Joined May 2011
1,747 Posts | 0+
Macedonia, Eastern Roman Empire
There were many civil wars in ancient Greece indeed.

The Spartans were defending their land from the Persians, Alexander on the other hand fought against Persians.
 
Joined Dec 2010
5,581 Posts | 721+
Pillium
That and the whole torturing/maiming of people who didn't want to worship Roman gods, having women and children tortured/killed/fed to lions. Did Egypt and Greece do such things??

The Romans didn't really give a damn which god you worshipped as long as you acknowledged the Imperial cult, paid your taxes and kept the peace. There were no blasphemy laws in Rome until it went Christian.
 
Joined Jan 2010
13,690 Posts | 14+
♪♬ ♫♪♩
I beg to differ. Europe was invented by Greece. The Romans conquered lands that were previously colonized/explored/charted by the Greeks.
I beg to differ. Europe was invented by the Assyrians. Erebu means sunset in Assyrian. (Asu means sunrise).
 
Joined Aug 2010
17,765 Posts | 23+
Central Macedonia
I beg to differ. Europe was invented by the Assyrians. Erebu means sunset in Assyrian. (Asu means sunrise).

Erebu sounds a lot different from Europe. The Greek word for Europe is Evrope. Assyrian Erebu is a highly speculative etymology. Enough said.....
The Assyrians NEVER used that word to descripe Europe as a continent, unlike the Greeks. If you disagree provide evidence, please.
 
Joined Jan 2010
13,690 Posts | 14+
♪♬ ♫♪♩
Erebu sounds a lot different from Europe. The Greek word for Europe is Evrope. Assyrian Erebu is a highly speculative etymology. Enough said.....
The Assyrians NEVER used that word to descripe Europe as a continent, unlike the Greeks. If you disagree provide evidence, please.
Europa was a Phoenician princess in ancient Greek mythology who had three kids with a bull-shaped Zeus (bulls... mmm makes one think of the Minoan culture, no?) who she had three sons with that she raised together with the king of Crete (mmm... smells of Minoans, no?) One of her three sons was named Minos (More minoans i guess).

All the poor .... ever saw was the Eastern Med. There are theories which suggest Europa is in fact Phoenician goddess Astarte. At least according to Lucian of Samosata in his De Dea Syria.

In any case even the Greek myths suggest for Europa a Semitic origin. (Europa was a Phoenician princess, no?)

Applying Occam's razor (the simplest explanation is the most likely) to the etymology of the word Europa leads back to the Phoenicians, who wether you like it or not, seem to be the first great civilizers of the Mediterranean, well before the Greeks. It is probable the terms Erebu and Asu to describe Eveningland and Morningland were introduced to the Hellenophones via the original Pelasgian population that inhabited Greece before the Indo-European language arrived in Greece.
 
Joined Aug 2010
17,765 Posts | 23+
Central Macedonia
Europa was a Phoenician princess in ancient Greek mythology who had three kids with a bull-shaped Zeus (bulls... mmm makes one think of the Minoan culture, no?) who she had three sons with that she raised together with the king of Crete (mmm... smells of Minoans, no?) One of her three sons was named Minos (More minoans i guess).

All the poor .... ever saw was the Eastern Med. There are theories which suggest Europa is in fact Phoenician goddess Astarte. At least according to Lucian of Samosata in his De Dea Syria.

In any case even the Greek myths suggest for Europa a Semitic origin. (Europa was a Phoenician princess, no?)

Applying Occam's razor (the simplest explanation is the most likely) to the etymology of the word Europa leads back to the Phoenicians, who wether you like it or not, seem to be the first great civilizers of the Mediterranean, well before the Greeks. It is probable the terms Erebu and Asu to describe Eveningland and Morningland were introduced to the Hellenophones via the original Pelasgian population that inhabited Greece before the Indo-European language arrived in Greece.

No, Europa was the Greek name for a Phoenician princess. Even Phoenicia, Ethiopia etc. etc. are the Greek names NOT THE NATIVE names. I am sure you know what that means... It's a Greek tale not a Phoenician! In any case the names were invented by the Greeks....
Speculative etymologies are just that.... speculative etymologies.
Europa as a person had a Semitic origin, not the word which was invented by the Greeks. The same goes for Asia. Asia is a name that you find in Greek mythology only. Earlier forms are highly speculative. The attested ancient names are Europe, Asia etc. They are both geographic and personal names.

The simplest explanation is the most likely. The simplest explanation is the Greek explanation not some Afrocentric highly speculative anti-Greek rant, that suggests that Asu is Asia and Erebu is Europe....

Also whoever says that Phoenicians were older than Greeks needs a re-boot really. The Myceneans and the Minoans according to archaeology were colonizing and expanding in the Mediterranean with evidence (Minoan artefacts in Judea) since 2000 BC. The Phoenician bed-time stories are refuted by serious sholarship and archaeology. You cannot beat archaeology with tales about Phoenicians.... This is not scholarship.

Moreover, how can you say anything about Pelasgians and "Indo-European" Greeks, when this is very much debatable and not a fact by any standard?
 
Joined Aug 2010
17,765 Posts | 23+
Central Macedonia
Europe's etymology is basically Greek from Euro/eury = wide and ope = eye. Europe= the one who has big eyes. This is the official etymology which is suggested not only in Greece Êþóôáò Å. ÌðÝçò (unfortunately not translated) but also by international scholars.

from L. Europa "Europe," from Gk. Europe, of uncertain origin; as a geographic name, first the Homeric hymn to Apollo (522 B.C.E. or earlier):
"Telphusa, here I am minded to make a glorious temple, an oracle for men, and hither they will always bring perfect hecatombs, both those who live in rich Peloponnesus and those of Europe and all the wave-washed isles, coming to seek oracles."​
"Often explained as "broad face," from eurys "wide" (see aneurysm) + ops "face." But also traditionally linked with Europa, Phoenician princess in Greek mythology. Klein (citing Heinrich Lewy) suggests a possible Semitic origin in Akkad. erebu "to go down, set" (in reference to the sun) which would parallel orient. Another suggestion along those lines is Phoenician 'ereb "evening," hence "west."
Online Etymology Dictionary

It makes more sense that a woman has big eyes/face than that she is "setting" or "West". Why would Phoenicians name a .... Europe as "West"? Obviously there is no Phoenician tale about Europe, only Greek.... So the whole thing was a Greek invention and anything else is just speculative history (at best).
 
Joined Jan 2010
13,690 Posts | 14+
♪♬ ♫♪♩
No, Europa was the Greek name for a Phoenician princess. Even Phoenicia, Ethiopia etc. etc. are the Greek names NOT THE NATIVE names. I am sure you know what that means... It's a Greek tale not a Phoenician! In any case the names were invented by the Greeks....
Speculative etymologies are just that.... speculative etymologies.
Europa as a person had a Semitic origin, not the word which was invented by the Greeks. The same goes for Asia. Asia is a name that you find in Greek mythology only. Earlier forms are highly speculative. The attested ancient names are Europe, Asia etc. They are both geographic and personal names.
There are multiple factors pointing towards Eastenr influences in Greek mythology and geographic terminology, but you reject them all.

The simplest explanation is the most likely. The simplest explanation is the Greek explanation not some Afrocentric highly speculative anti-Greek rant, that suggests that Asu is Asia and Erebu is Europe....
The simplest explanation is two words Asu and Erebu which mean sunrise and sunset, or morning land and evening land, which sound remarkably similar to Asia and Europe somehow gotten used by Hellenophones. They, ethnocentric as they have always been fancied up a nice little story about a princess who did it with a bull so that we, later peoples could clearly understand the story was... .........

Strange, i thought the Greeks were known to practice logos, and the Eastern peoples mythos, but you turn it all round because you refuse to accpet the Greeks ever learnt anything from their Eastern neighbours.

The Greeks named Asia Anatolia, after Natalia, where the sun was born. Erebu was a common name for the west. It is related to the Egyptian term for west, Lebu. In Egyptian hieroglyphs 'l' and 'r' are mutually interchangeable. Rebu or Ribu, is remarkably close to "erebu"
Also whoever says that Phoenicians were older than Greeks needs a re-boot really. The Myceneans and the Minoans according to archaeology were colonizing and expanding in the Mediterranean with evidence (Minoan artefacts in Judea) since 2000 BC. The Phoenician bed-time stories are refuted by serious sholarship and archaeology. You cannot beat archaeology with tales about Phoenicians.... This is not scholarship.
There was no Judaea in 200bc. There were proto Phoenicians living there at the time , 'though? It is well possible the Phoenicians took whatever object from Crete to Canaan. You have nothing for Myceneans. If anything Mycaneans were cheap labour for the Minoans.
Moreover, how can you say anything about Pelasgians and "Indo-European" Greeks, when this is very much debatable and not a fact by any standard?
The Greeks knew there had been people living in greece before they arrived there. Those were called the Pelasgians.
 
Joined May 2011
1,747 Posts | 0+
Macedonia, Eastern Roman Empire
There are multiple factors pointing towards Eastenr influences in Greek mythology and geographic terminology, but you reject them all.


The simplest explanation is two words Asu and Erebu which mean sunrise and sunset, or morning land and evening land, which sound remarkably similar to Asia and Europe somehow gotten used by Hellenophones. They, ethnocentric as they have always been fancied up a nice little story about a princess who did it with a bull so that we, later peoples could clearly understand the story was... .........

Strange, i thought the Greeks were known to practice logos, and the Eastern peoples mythos, but you turn it all round because you refuse to accpet the Greeks ever learnt anything from their Eastern neighbours.

The Greeks named Asia Anatolia, after Natalia, where the sun was born. Erebu was a common name for the west. It is related to the Egyptian term for west, Lebu. In Egyptian hieroglyphs 'l' and 'r' are mutually interchangeable. Rebu or Ribu, is remarkably close to "erebu"

There was no Judaea in 200bc. There were proto Phoenicians living there at the time , 'though? It is well possible the Phoenicians took whatever object from Crete to Canaan. You have nothing for Myceneans. If anything Mycaneans were cheap labour for the Minoans.

The Greeks knew there had been people living in greece before they arrived there. Those were called the Pelasgians.

The Pelasgians were their ancestors as well, the Athenians, as Ionians, and many others.

Thucydides

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thucydides"]Thucydides[/ame] states that:
Before the time of [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellen"]Hellen[/ame], son of [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deucalion"]Deucalion[/ame], ... the country went by the names of the different tribes, in particular of the Pelasgian. It was not till Hellen and his sons grew strong in [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phthia"]Phthiotis[/ame], and were invited as allies into the other cities, that one by one they gradually acquired from the connection the name of [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenes"]Hellenes[/ame]; though a long time elapsed before that name could fasten itself upon all.


Herodorus:

But the Hellenic stock, it seems clear to me, has always had the same language since its beginning; yet being, when separated from the Pelasgians, few in number, they have grown from a small beginning to comprise a multitude of nations, chiefly because the Pelasgians and many other foreign peoples united themselves with them. Before that, I think, the Pelasgic stock nowhere increased much in number while it was of foreign speech.

What language the Pelasgians spoke I cannot say definitely. But if one may judge by those that still remain of the Pelasgians who live above the Tyrrheni in the city of Creston —who were once neighbors of the people now called Dorians, and at that time inhabited the country which now is called Thessalian— and of the Pelasgians who inhabited Placia and Scylace on the Hellespont, who came to live among the Athenians, and by other towns too which were once Pelasgian and afterwards took a different name: if, as I said, one may judge by these, the Pelasgians spoke a language which was not Greek. If, then, all the Pelasgian stock spoke so, then the Attic nation, being of Pelasgian blood, must have changed its language too at the time when it became part of the Hellenes. For the people of Creston and Placia have a language of their own in common, which is not the language of their neighbors; and it is plain that they still preserve the manner of speech which they brought with them in their migration into the places where they live.
 
Joined Aug 2010
17,765 Posts | 23+
Central Macedonia
There are multiple factors pointing towards Eastenr influences in Greek mythology and geographic terminology, but you reject them all.


The simplest explanation is two words Asu and Erebu which mean sunrise and sunset, or morning land and evening land, which sound remarkably similar to Asia and Europe somehow gotten used by Hellenophones. They, ethnocentric as they have always been fancied up a nice little story about a princess who did it with a bull so that we, later peoples could clearly understand the story was... .........

Strange, i thought the Greeks were known to practice logos, and the Eastern peoples mythos, but you turn it all round because you refuse to accpet the Greeks ever learnt anything from their Eastern neighbours.

The Greeks named Asia Anatolia, after Natalia, where the sun was born. Erebu was a common name for the west. It is related to the Egyptian term for west, Lebu. In Egyptian hieroglyphs 'l' and 'r' are mutually interchangeable. Rebu or Ribu, is remarkably close to "erebu"

There was no Judaea in 200bc. There were proto Phoenicians living there at the time , 'though? It is well possible the Phoenicians took whatever object from Crete to Canaan. You have nothing for Myceneans. If anything Mycaneans were cheap labour for the Minoans.

The Greeks knew there had been people living in greece before they arrived there. Those were called the Pelasgians.


1) I only reject what's highly speculative, politically motivated and not substantiated.

2) Erebu was a name of a Phoenician princess in Phoenician mythology?
Really? Last time I checked, no. There is no Phoenician reference to Europe as a continent, or any reference to a Phoenician princess named Erebu, Europa or anything else... Therefore you have no case but only speculations. The only certain etymology is Europa as a Greek name which means big eyes, and it refers to a foreign (Phoenician) Princess.

3) I never said that the Greeks did not learn from their neighbours. This is a lie! I said what serious scholars say: The influence is vague, not certain and definitely cannot be proven in MOST cases. Therefore it is highly speculative. period!

4) Erebu was not a common name in the West. West is not Northern Africa or "Anatolia". West is Europe. Erebu was NEVER attested in Greek or Latin texts. Anatolia is a 100% Greek word from Anatoli = Sunrise/East.
The Greeks had no reason to use an Assyrian word to describe the East/West, like Erebu or Assu when they had the words Anatoli/Disi. Speculative afrocentrist nonsense is not accepted by me or serious scholarship. I am sorry. Revisionist claims have nothing but speculations.

5) There was 2000 BCE Jericho so yes there was 2000 BCE "Judea". In 2000 BC the Jewish tribes were still in their native land. They moved to Egypt later, when the famine occured. You can call them Proto-Canaanites if you prefer the "scientific" name. Myceneans according to Homer, were ruling the Aegean and beyond in the second millenium BC.
The same goes to Minoans. Troy was just one example of Mycenean/Pelasgian dominance in the Mediterranean (1000-1500 BC).
The Phoenicians were not attested before the Greeks!!! Even their alphabet (if it was really theirs) was invented well after the Greek script, half a millenium earlier!

6) You don't understand who the Pelasgians were.... Pelasgians were the proto-Greeks, those who lived before the ones who wrote history (after 8th century BC). Pelasgians, Myceneans etc. not only wrote in Greek since 1500 BC, but they also spoke the same language since at least 2000 BC. To detach ancient proto-helladic civilization (circa 3000 BC) from Pelasgians/Myceneans etc. is an unfounded speculation and nothing more.
 
Joined Nov 2010
1,682 Posts | 9+
Londinium
Apart from the sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us? Not a damn thing!

Damn!:evil: You got there first.

Egypt never did any wrong? I suppose the pyramids were built out of good will and good intentions. As for the Greeks never hurting innocents? Ever heard of helots? I'm sure they were just volunteering.

If anything, Rome inspires. From Renaissance art and music to modern politics the shadow of Rome can be seen far and wide. Not to mention language and religion.

That's not to take anthing away from other ancient cultures, but they weren't part of the question :zany:
 

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