Joined Jun 2012
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Are Chulan Kings of Malaysia descendants of the Cholan Dynasty?
- Thread starter Theseus
- Start date
The Khmer ruler Suryavarman, who asked for the help of Rajendra Chola to save his kingdom against his enemies, seems to be originally from Malaysia and seems to be related either to the Tambralinga kingdom or Srivijaya. The Chola records seem to suggest that Tambralinga was an independent kingdom but probably an ally of Srivijaya.
Ironically Suryavarman was probably an ethnically Malay lord who fought for Angkor Wat of Cambodia with the help of the Chola Dynasty of India against Tambralinga and Kadaram of Malay Peninsula and Srivijaya of Sumatra.
Ironically Suryavarman was probably an ethnically Malay lord who fought for Angkor Wat of Cambodia with the help of the Chola Dynasty of India against Tambralinga and Kadaram of Malay Peninsula and Srivijaya of Sumatra.
Joined Jun 2012
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Malaysia
Now, I hv a task for you, Theseus. That is, if you're keen about it. Perhaps you might want to consider it as some kind of history research challenge.
I obtained info, from an Indian poster some time back, in another forum, that the 1025 invasion was actually executed in kind of a three-pronged strategy, involving three commanders.
Commander #1 was someone called Beema Senan, possibly a grandson of Rajendra Chola, who was tasked to lead the attack on Kadaram (i.e. Gangga Negara + Langkasuka) & nearby areas, which he launched from his forward base on the Nakkavaram, i.e. Nikobar Islands.
Commander #2 was named Uttama Chola Brahma Marayan (or Brahma Ayer, or something like that), likely another close relative of Rejendra, just going by his name, who had to attack Palembang, the centre of Srivijaya proper, on Sumatra island.
Commander #3, I don't hv his name thus far, had to attack the Malay Isthmus (today Kra Isthmus, in southern Thailand), beginning with the city of Takkola, possibly sweeping down later to Ligor/Tambralinga, seat of the kingdom of Nagara Sri Dharmaraja.
So, Theseus, if you cud try to get a bit more detail on these guys. Like what was the name of commander #3, what was the regal name of commander #1 Beema Senan (he must hv a name with the Chola brand in it, I wud believe), and the precise name of commander #2, if available & different from already mentioned.
I obtained info, from an Indian poster some time back, in another forum, that the 1025 invasion was actually executed in kind of a three-pronged strategy, involving three commanders.
Commander #1 was someone called Beema Senan, possibly a grandson of Rajendra Chola, who was tasked to lead the attack on Kadaram (i.e. Gangga Negara + Langkasuka) & nearby areas, which he launched from his forward base on the Nakkavaram, i.e. Nikobar Islands.
Commander #2 was named Uttama Chola Brahma Marayan (or Brahma Ayer, or something like that), likely another close relative of Rejendra, just going by his name, who had to attack Palembang, the centre of Srivijaya proper, on Sumatra island.
Commander #3, I don't hv his name thus far, had to attack the Malay Isthmus (today Kra Isthmus, in southern Thailand), beginning with the city of Takkola, possibly sweeping down later to Ligor/Tambralinga, seat of the kingdom of Nagara Sri Dharmaraja.
So, Theseus, if you cud try to get a bit more detail on these guys. Like what was the name of commander #3, what was the regal name of commander #1 Beema Senan (he must hv a name with the Chola brand in it, I wud believe), and the precise name of commander #2, if available & different from already mentioned.
I will try to find out the details if such details exist at all.
But Brahma Marayan could be a different form of Krishna Raman Aryan who was one of the generals of Rajendra Chola.
Rajendra Chola led the attack against Kadaram in Malay peninsula as he is called in Chola records and by later court poets with the title "Kadaram Kondan" which literally means he who took Kadaram
Joined Jun 2012
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Now, you're getting confused by the history confusion. Just like I hv been myself.
Well, there are two competing versions for the origin of this Surya Varman I. The first one, first proposed by George Coedes (and favoured by pro-Malay scholars), was that he was a prince of the court of Nagara Sri Dharmaraja, centred at Ligor aka Tambralinga, on the Malay Isthmus (now Kra Isthmus). This wud hv made him an ethnic Malay, becos at the time NSD was a Malay royal house, albeit closely allied with the Khmer of Angkor. His father wud hv been Sujita Raja, ruler of NSD. This Sujita Raja had married a sister of Jaya Varman V, maharaja of Angkor, and SV I wud hv been a son from that union.
The link with Srivijaya wud hv been via Sujita Raja, who some writers hv cited was a paternal half-brother of Chulamani Varma Deva, father of Mara Vijaya & grandfather of Sang Rama Vijaya.
Now, Sujita Raja also had become Senapati of Angkor army, as well as Narapati of Lavo, where the army HQ was located. So he was a powerful man. When Jaya Varman V died of old age, Sujita Raja seized power & installed himself as new maharaja, with the name Jaya Vira Varman. He might hv put his brother Udaya Aditya Varman there first, but very briefly.
Second version (favoured by pro-Cambodian faction) says Surya Varman I was a Khmer prince who came from eastern Cambodia.
The two in fact ended up as rivals & fought each other for several years, with Surya Varman eventually winning their protracted war.
Funny thing is, there is in fact a Khmer scholar named Lem Chuck Moth, who in his own personal website (meruheritage.com) is supporting the first, pro-Malay version. He is contending that Udaya Aditya Varman, his brother Sujita Raja (Jaya Vira Varman) & Surya Varman were of the same one family from the court of NSD. You can read his detailed explanation in chapter titled 'The Sri Vijaya' in that website.
Now, it's tough to say that Surya Varman I was indeed a son of Sujita Raja (Jaya Vira Varman) becos the two actually ended up fighting each other for the Angkor throne. The only way that cud hv happened was, in my opinion, if Surya Varman I was actually only a step-son of Sujita Raja, from a Khmer father. It cud be possible, becos some writers say that the sister of Jaya Varman V (mother of Surya Varman I) was already old when Sujita Raja married her, ostensibly to strengthen his claim to the Angkor throne, whose tradition kind of favoured the maternal line.
Joined Jun 2012
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Good. You've got something already. Thanks.
I don't think Rajendra led the invasion personally, becos Chola Mandalam was also itself facing threats from closer to home, i.e. Hoysala, Pandya, Western Chalukya, as well as a growing rebellion from the Singhala in Sri Lanka.
During the reign of Rajendra Chola the Chalukyas, Hoysalas, Pandyas and Sri Lanka were not a threat. They only became a threat during the reign of his successors. During the reign of Rajendra Chola the Hoysalas were minor chiefs, the Chalukyas were defeated and their capital raided. The capital of the Pandyas was under the rule of a son of Rajendra Chola. And the capital of Sri Lanka was also sacked and there were not any rebellions in Sri Lanka during the reign of Rajendra Chola.
Joined Jun 2012
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Aah, okay, so those threats only came into being later then.
The son who ruled over the Pandya, what was his name?
The son who ruled over the Pandya, what was his name?
Joined Oct 2012
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Z
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Joined Jun 2012
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Most of the statements are based on the Chola, Srivijaya, Khmer and Chinese records. The combination of all these records clarify a lot of events which happened in the 11th century. Adding to that certain Indian texts and Malaysian texts are also used. One example is the Malay text Sejarah Melayu which was written in the 15th century. I do not claim that all parts of the text are based on history but many parts do correlate with the Chola records.
He was called Jatavarman Sundara Chola Pandya and was installed by Rajendra Chola as the viceroy of Madurai the capital of the Pandyas and ruled it until 1052 CE. In 1052 CE he had to give up his position in Madurai as he had to fight the battle of Koppam against the Chalukya Dynasty as one of the Chola generals for his older brother and Chola King Rajadhiraja Chola. He was forced to succeed his older brother as the next Chola king as his older brother was killed by the Chalukya forces and was able to defeat the Chalukyas.
The most interesting part of this battle is the fact that this is one of only few battles where an Indian army was able to win despite of the loss of their king or main general. Usually the soldiers of past Indian armies would flee the battlefield after the killing or capture of their king and this would result in a disaster. This happened when Prithviraj Chauhan was captured by Ghori in the 12th century which led to the collapse of the Chauhan Dynasty. And this also happened when Rama Raya was killed in the battle of Talikota which resulted in the decline of the Vijayanagar Empire. The Maratha soldiers also fled after their general Sadhashivrao Bhau was captured by the Afghans in the battle of Panipat.
But for some reason the Chola soldiers kept their composure even after the loss of their king and were able to defeat the Chalukya forces in the battle of Koppam.
Joined Jun 2012
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Thanks.
I wonder why they always do that kind of thing, like bolt away from the field in complete chaos when their king or chief falls. They should hv a system where, if the #1 falls, then #2 automatically takes over, then #3, and so on. But that rarely happens, for some reason. I guess they just succumb to panic, and see it as a sign of imminent defeat, which shud not necessarily be the case, if you hv competent deputies.
I wonder why they always do that kind of thing, like bolt away from the field in complete chaos when their king or chief falls. They should hv a system where, if the #1 falls, then #2 automatically takes over, then #3, and so on. But that rarely happens, for some reason. I guess they just succumb to panic, and see it as a sign of imminent defeat, which shud not necessarily be the case, if you hv competent deputies.
The main problem with several past Indian armies was that these armies were made up of different units which were ruled by feudal lords who ruled far distant provinces and who did not necessarily have a sort of attachement towards their Emperor or the main general who was appointed by the Emperor. Raja Raja Chola realised, based on past experience and based on the disastrous defeat that his grandfather Parantaka had suffered against the powerful Rashtrakuta Dynsty, that he and his successors are only able to succeed when their armies are led by capable generals who are able to keep the discipline of the soldiers intact. One tactic of the Cholas from the reign of Raja Chola onwards was to always keep a reserve guard which was either led by capable family members or an official who was part of the inner circle and therefore was willing to sacrifice his life for the sake of the Dynasty. This is what happened in the battle of Koppam. When the Chola King Rajadhiraja was killed by the Chalukya forces his younger brother Rajendra II intervened with his reserve guard and saved the day for the Cholas.
The Marathas could have won the battle of Panipat against the Afghans if they were led by more capable generals like Shinde or Holkar. But the ruler of the Maratha Dynasty made the mistake and appointed Sadhashivrao Bhau who made several mistakes. Shinde and Holkar were also present in this battle as minor generals but they were not willing to sacrifice their lives for an incompetent general like Sadhashivrao Bhau and therefore fled the battlefield.
Joined Jun 2012
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From what I hv been reading, the ancient Persians, Greeks & Romans were even more brutal. They put their average soldiers in the frontline, While their crack elite force wud kind of hang back a bit behind those guys.
So, the men in front had no choice but to fight tooth & nail with their life, as well as for their life. Becos if they falter & they look like losing their nerve, and look like fleeing away, the guards behind them will be the first to kill them.
So, the men in front had no choice but to fight tooth & nail with their life, as well as for their life. Becos if they falter & they look like losing their nerve, and look like fleeing away, the guards behind them will be the first to kill them.
Joined Jun 2012
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An interesting theme in Malay folklore is the name Raja Suran, as well as Raja Chulan, in their many varieties & versions. I hv even come across one where a Raja Suran was in fact fighting a battle against a Raja Chulan, both sides with his horses & elephants.
Another version has a Raja Suran bursting out of the ocean, where he has been for some kind of long sojourn or adventure, riding forth on a while bull, and landing on some mountain in Sumatra.
I wud, say these likely had their origins in & in some convoluted way inspired by those 11th century invasions of the Chola on key Srivijaya member kingdoms. It's like, hazy recollections of real historical events in the collective Malay psyche, permeating into the fertile minds of tale spinning & story-telling types, and then them just, well, going to town with it, so to speak. Adding in not a little amount of even further magic, mystery, myth & such, demigods & all, from even earlier times, to make their stories even spicier.
Another version has a Raja Suran bursting out of the ocean, where he has been for some kind of long sojourn or adventure, riding forth on a while bull, and landing on some mountain in Sumatra.
I wud, say these likely had their origins in & in some convoluted way inspired by those 11th century invasions of the Chola on key Srivijaya member kingdoms. It's like, hazy recollections of real historical events in the collective Malay psyche, permeating into the fertile minds of tale spinning & story-telling types, and then them just, well, going to town with it, so to speak. Adding in not a little amount of even further magic, mystery, myth & such, demigods & all, from even earlier times, to make their stories even spicier.
Yes I also read this and this part certainly was influenced by the invasion of Rajendra Chola. What is interesting is also that the text Sejarah Melayu states that Raja Suran sent his forces from Nagapattinam and Nagapattinam was indeed the main port city of the Chola Dynasty. Some parts of the text are historically quite accurate
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They wud hv known about that place, Nagapattinam. Mara Vijaya, father of Sang Rama Vijaya, in fact visited it once, during times of friendlier relations between Chola Mandalam & Srivijaya, and he was shown around the place, especially a temple called Chulamani (sometimes also spelt Chudamani by Indians) Maha Vihara, becos it had been sponsored or part-sponsored by Chulamani Varma Deva, father of Mara Vijaya.
I think, around this time he, or perhaps his father, was kind of competing for Chola goodwill with Surya Varman I, who had gifted Raja Raja Chola with a golden chariot of Shiva, IIRC.
I think, around this time he, or perhaps his father, was kind of competing for Chola goodwill with Surya Varman I, who had gifted Raja Raja Chola with a golden chariot of Shiva, IIRC.
Srivijaya tried to establish good relations with Chola India and Song China by sending presents to both courts and even went so far to establish facilities like Chulamani. But Srivijaya did this for their own goal to dominate the trade routes in Southeast Asia which was also one of the main trade routes between China and India. Srivijaya started to systematically eliminate their rivals in Southeast Asia which triggered the Chola Dynasty.
Suryavarman on the other hand sent the golden chariot to the Chola court to preserve his own kingdom as he usurped the throne of Cambodia and therefore needed a powerful ally. He could not get any support from Song China which for some reason seems to have believed everything which was told by the Srivijaya delegations. So Suryavarman had to seek help from Chola India.
Suryavarman on the other hand sent the golden chariot to the Chola court to preserve his own kingdom as he usurped the throne of Cambodia and therefore needed a powerful ally. He could not get any support from Song China which for some reason seems to have believed everything which was told by the Srivijaya delegations. So Suryavarman had to seek help from Chola India.
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