Greatest Generals Italy ever produced?

Polynikes · Feb 23, 2017

Lord Oda Nobunaga said:
I mean neither was Giovanni Messe really. He also didn't have any campaigns of note just a good service record.
Graziani may have been defeated by Operation Compass but he did well in his part of the Gothic Line Offensive. Other than that he also performed well in the Libyan insurgency and the Ogaden offensive.
When it comes to Italian military history it isn't like we have that much to choose from anyway.

As an aside, would you consider Eugene of Savoy ethnically or culturally Italian?

And where do you stand on the whole Caesar being Italian or not Italian thing?

Lord Oda Nobunaga · Feb 23, 2017

Polynikes said:
As an aside, would you consider Eugene of Savoy ethnically or culturally Italian?

And where do you stand on the whole Caesar being Italian or not Italian thing?

I'm not particularly sure I mean Eugene of Savoy was a Savoyard but he spent most of his youth in France. He probably spoke Italian as an educated noble but other than that I don't think he had any physical ties to Italy itself.

I wasn't really planning on commenting about Caesar since he was a Roman who lived in a time prior to any Italian identity.

As for the Sicilians well I can think of Ruggiero di Lauria who served the Aragonese, he was not really a condotierro per se.
These condotierro in general moved their allegiances about to the highest bidder or whoever they thought would give them a better chance of winning.

nuclearguy165 · Feb 23, 2017

Lord Oda Nobunaga said:
Rodolfo Graziani while not having a hugely impressive record in WW2 or barely any record to be frank, wasn't that bad either. I don't really blame him for the disastrous Operation E. He also performed exceptionally well in the Ogaden during the 2nd Italo-Ethiopian War. So he at least has something to his name as a colonial officer. Let us not forget that he defeated the revolt in Cyrenaica so additional points for counter-insurgency. I suppose I could also give him some points for putting up a fight in Italy against the Allies, not great but it was at least something.

I thought you were joking about him at first, considering just how pathetically disastrous the Italian performance against the British was in 1940-41, but I am certainly willing to hear out any argument that says the debacle of Operation Compass wasn't really Graziani's fault.

Lord Oda Nobunaga · Feb 23, 2017

In the sense of Operation E it was a total failure but the only reason that Operation Compass even succeeded is because Graziani couldn't realistically carry out that operation. The only reason he did it was because Mussolini ordered him to. Although granted the British commanders said that Graziani should have been more aggressive that is with the benefit of hindsight and it is more telling that they had no knowledge of the on goings in the Italian camp. There was just no realistic expectation that Graziani could have carried out any offensive into Egypt. Looking at Rommel's botched offensives this just seems to be more the case. Though I don't really want to go into Italian preparations for war or why Libya was so unsuitable as a base for the Italians to carry out offensive operations, not to mention the problems of the Italians as a whole.

Strontium90 · Feb 23, 2017

Polynikes said:
Was Cesare really all that capable as a commander? What do Italian historians make of his generalship?

Caesar was a brilliant strategist, and is generally acknowledged as such. His army was smaller than that wielded by the Senate/Pompeii, comprised of equally trained Roman soldiers, and defeated them. Pompeii is generally considered to be a great general in his own right.

Strontium90 · Feb 23, 2017

My apologies Polynikes! I assumed you misspelled Caesar (I was still thinking about Caesar from an earlier comment.

Polynikes · Feb 24, 2017

Strontium90 said:
My apologies Polynikes! I assumed you misspelled Caesar (I was still thinking about Caesar from an earlier comment.

Need not worry!

I'm still interested in hearing more about Cesare's generalship though.

Lee-Sensei · Jun 5, 2017

Polynikes said:
As an aside, would you consider Eugene of Savoy ethnically or culturally Italian?

And where do you stand on the whole Caesar being Italian or not Italian thing?

He was an ethnic Italian, born in France that fought for Austria.

Lee-Sensei · Jun 5, 2017

Lord Oda Nobunaga said:
I'm not particularly sure I mean Eugene of Savoy was a Savoyard but he spent most of his youth in France. He probably spoke Italian as an educated noble but other than that I don't think he had any physical ties to Italy itself.

I wasn't really planning on commenting about Caesar since he was a Roman who lived in a time prior to any Italian identity.

As for the Sicilians well I can think of Ruggiero di Lauria who served the Aragonese, he was not really a condotierro per se.
These condotierro in general moved their allegiances about to the highest bidder or whoever they thought would give them a better chance of winning.

I'd disagree. Reading the ancient sources I think it can be said that an Italian identity had been formed by the second Punic war in the same way that it can be said that a Greek identity was formed during the second Persian war.

I wouldn't consider graziani a great general or even a good one, but I found this.

http://italianmonarchist.blogspot.ca/2012/05/marshal-of-italy-rodolfo-graziani.html

Take it for what it's worth. Actually, I think an Italian general with a solid service record marred by one big defeat is actually Orestes baratiere the commander at adwa. He first fought with garibaldi where he was awarded a medal for his Val or during the campaign of 1860. After that he joined the bersagliere and fought at custoza where his company held off an Austrian brigade for 3 hours and winning praise from the Austrian general staff. He wrote Articles on military affairs that were complimented by moltke. Afterwards he was sent to Italian east Africa where he won battles against the Eritreans, Somalis and fanatics of Mahdi Sudan. After wore broke out with Ethiopia, he again continued to win his battles usually outnumbered and outgunned by the Ethiopian army, but he knew he didn't have enough troops to successfully conquer the country. He wanted to wait for the Ethiopian army to whither away after running low on supplies before advancing, but prime minister crispy wanted a victory to boost support for his administration. Under pressure from Rome he attacked and the rest was history. His army of about 17000 troops half of them being poor conscripts from the colonies were overwhelmed by 120000 Ethiopians mostly armed with french and British guns and artillery and with Russian military advisors, tarnishing an otherwise solid military record. Not unlike General Custer.

kazeuma · Jun 5, 2017

martin76 said:
Strontium90 said:

Nitpicking. And your comment "Napoleon and Caesar are as Italian as George Bush is German" is preposterous.

mistake Borgia was not exactly "italian" but Spanish-Italian.

Click to expand...

Niccolò Machiavelli on the other hand identified Boriga as Italian. There is some unconfirmed suspicion that it was Borgia and not De Medici that "The Prince" was dedicated to.

Polynikes · Jun 6, 2017

Lee-Sensei said:
He was an ethnic Italian, born in France that fought for Austria.

Did he ever comment on being Italian?

Lord Oda Nobunaga · Jun 7, 2017

Lee-Sensei said:
I'd disagree. Reading the ancient sources I think it can be said that an Italian identity had been formed by the second Punic war in the same way that it can be said that a Greek identity was formed during the second Persian war.

I wouldn't consider graziani a great general or even a good one, but I found this.

The Italian Monarchist: Marshal of Italy Rodolfo Graziani

Take it for what it's worth. Actually, I think an Italian general with a solid service record marred by one big defeat is actually Orestes baratiere the commander at adwa. He first fought with garibaldi where he was awarded a medal for his Val or during the campaign of 1860. After that he joined the bersagliere and fought at custoza where his company held off an Austrian brigade for 3 hours and winning praise from the Austrian general staff. He wrote Articles on military affairs that were complimented by moltke. Afterwards he was sent to Italian east Africa where he won battles against the Eritreans, Somalis and fanatics of Mahdi Sudan. After wore broke out with Ethiopia, he again continued to win his battles usually outnumbered and outgunned by the Ethiopian army, but he knew he didn't have enough troops to successfully conquer the country. He wanted to wait for the Ethiopian army to whither away after running low on supplies before advancing, but prime minister crispy wanted a victory to boost support for his administration. Under pressure from Rome he attacked and the rest was history. His army of about 17000 troops half of them being poor conscripts from the colonies were overwhelmed by 120000 Ethiopians mostly armed with french and British guns and artillery and with Russian military advisors, tarnishing an otherwise solid military record. Not unlike General Custer.

I sort of think that the identity of Italy in the ancient times was more of a Roman identity if anything. Italian Unification for example did not really have a Sardinian identity or major Piedmontese or Sardinian influence.

Rodolfo Graziani was fairly capable in my opinion. As far as the standards of the time go he was probably the best officer that the Italians had. His record is overall very good with the only misstep being Operation E. Graziani's pride also got in the way which led to him giving up his command and going into early retirement since he did not want to serve under Rommel. His return to the war when the Allies had invaded Italy and the country had fractured was brief but still somewhat impressive.

Oreste Baratieri seems rather interesting. I will have to look into his career.

Regarding Eugene of Savoy: Eugene was ethnically Italian though by that time the House of Savoy had married into many families on practically all sides of the Alps. Though Savoy was on the French side of the Alps and it was annexed by the French. Later on the areas of that kingdom on the Italian side of the Alps would become Piedmont, now that Savoy itself had been taken by the French. It would change hands multiple times but the seat of power changed to Sardinia. Eugene's father Eugene Maurice was of the Savoy royal family and was the count of Soissons. Eugene's mother was Olympia who was the niece of Cardinal Mazarin and could have potentially married Louis XIV but the opportunity never presented itself and she was married off to Eugene Maurice. Maybe if the whole family died off somehow Eugene could have become Duke of Savoy or something of the sort, even if the duchy was more or less a French puppet (though only Eugene's great grandfather was Duke of Savoy so that would require a lot of deaths).

martin76 · Jun 7, 2017

I think italian generals are the generals fought by the Kingdom of Italy (1861 - 1947) or the Republic of Italy (till 2017).

Eugen de Saovie was an Austrian General... point. His ethnicity is difficult to know... maybe he was italian, or French, or Burgundian, or Swiss...

However he was Austrian. That is a fact. In this book (not exceptiona...but interesting because it was written in the year 1739...no doubt)... Eugen was Austrian.. the cities sounds in their biography...they are austrian cities as Wien, Vysehrád etc etc..
His father was a italian-French-Swiis man (the Count of Soissons, Eugene Maurice of Savoy)..
In fact, it is not possible to say one "nationality" in the European Aristocracy.. Prinz Eugen came from many families: in fact, PHILIP II was his great great grandfather!!!! and his daughter, the Infanta of Spain Catalina Micaela de Austria, his great grandmother!. So, Eugene of Savoy had Italian-French-Spanish blood. And as Philip II had blood came from Trastámara and from Habsburg, and Trastámara had Spanish and English blood and the Habsburg, they had Burgundian and German blood...

So, the Prinz Eugen had Italian-French-Spanish-English-Burgundian-German blood...

So what kind of nationality? NONE or ALL. People in time he lived they weren´t interested in "Nationalities"...
So, we can say something very simple... The brave Prinz Eugen was an Austrian Soldier...and Imperial General, and an Habsburg´s sword.
To say he had 17% Italian blood, 12% French Blood, 9% Spanish blood, 5% English Blood etc etc... it is a game for a nationalistic competition.

Fact? This man was an Austrian Soldier.

Polynikes · Jun 7, 2017

martin76 said:
I think italian generals are the generals fought by the Kingdom of Italy (1861 - 1947) or the Republic of Italy (till 2017).

Eugen de Saovie was an Austrian General... point. His ethnicity is difficult to know... maybe he was italian, or French, or Burgundian, or Swiss...

However he was Austrian. That is a fact. In this book (not exceptiona...but interesting because it was written in the year 1739...no doubt)... Eugen was Austrian.. the cities sounds in their biography...they are austrian cities as Wien, Vysehrád etc etc..
His father was a italian-French-Swiis man (the Count of Soissons, Eugene Maurice of Savoy)..
In fact, it is not possible to say one "nationality" in the European Aristocracy.. Prinz Eugen came from many families: in fact, PHILIP II was his great great grandfather!!!! and his daughter, the Infanta of Spain Catalina Micaela de Austria, his great grandmother!. So, Eugene of Savoy had Italian-French-Spanish blood. And as Philip II had blood came from Trastámara and from Habsburg, and Trastámara had Spanish and English blood and the Habsburg, they had Burgundian and German blood...

So, the Prinz Eugen had Italian-French-Spanish-English-Burgundian-German blood...

So what kind of nationality? NONE or ALL. People in time he lived they weren´t interested in "Nationalities"...
So, we can say something very simple... The brave Prinz Eugen was an Austrian Soldier...and Imperial General, and an Habsburg´s sword.
To say he had 17% Italian blood, 12% French Blood, 9% Spanish blood, 5% English Blood etc etc... it is a game for a nationalistic competition.

Fact? This man was an Austrian Soldier.

Ridiculous. If I moved to the Netherlands and joined their military, would I be a Dutchman through and through? No I wouldn't.

Fighting for a country doesn't not imply ethnic heritage. See Napoleon for example, another Italian who fought for another country. Ergo Eugene was Italian. End of discussion.

martin76 · Jun 7, 2017

Polynikes said:
Ridiculous. If I moved to the Netherlands and joined their military, would I be a Dutchman through and through? No I wouldn't.

Fighting for a country doesn't not imply ethnic heritage. See Napoleon for example, another Italian who fought for another country. Ergo Eugene was Italian. End of discussion.

Ridicolous... Was Philip II Italian? Because Philip II is his great great grandfather... Was Catalina Micaela de Austria italian? Not, it isn ´t... His family came from France-Savoie-Spain-Switzerland-Empire-England-Burgundian etc etc..

So.. not from one place.

But you should read the Prinz Euge lines.. Yes, Philip II (habsburg-Trastamara) was his great great grandfather

StemmaFamiliaeEugeni_%28English_Version%29.png

Lee-Sensei · Jun 9, 2017

Lord Oda Nobunaga said:
I sort of think that the identity of Italy in the ancient times was more of a Roman identity if anything. Italian Unification for example did not really have a Sardinian identity or major Piedmontese or Sardinian influence.

Rodolfo Graziani was fairly capable in my opinion. As far as the standards of the time go he was probably the best officer that the Italians had. His record is overall very good with the only misstep being Operation E. Graziani's pride also got in the way which led to him giving up his command and going into early retirement since he did not want to serve under Rommel. His return to the war when the Allies had invaded Italy and the country had fractured was brief but still somewhat impressive.

Oreste Baratieri seems rather interesting. I will have to look into his career.

Regarding Eugene of Savoy: Eugene was ethnically Italian though by that time the House of Savoy had married into many families on practically all sides of the Alps. Though Savoy was on the French side of the Alps and it was annexed by the French. Later on the areas of that kingdom on the Italian side of the Alps would become Piedmont, now that Savoy itself had been taken by the French. It would change hands multiple times but the seat of power changed to Sardinia. Eugene's father Eugene Maurice was of the Savoy royal family and was the count of Soissons. Eugene's mother was Olympia who was the niece of Cardinal Mazarin and could have potentially married Louis XIV but the opportunity never presented itself and she was married off to Eugene Maurice. Maybe if the whole family died off somehow Eugene could have become Duke of Savoy or something of the sort, even if the duchy was more or less a French puppet (though only Eugene's great grandfather was Duke of Savoy so that would require a lot of deaths).

1) Eventually everyone in the Empire became a Roman, but for along time Roman and Italian were often used interchangeably reading the Ancient sources. In the Aeneid there are lines like, "here Caesar is leading the Italians to battle with the Senate and the People, together with the Penates and the Great Gods" when Virgil is discribing a depiction of the Battle of Actium on Aeneas' shield and "Let Rome grow strong through our Italian valor". Augustus years after the Battle of Actium said "All of Italy swore an oath of allegiance to me and chose me as the leader in the war I won at Actium".

2) Better than Messe?

3) That's all true. Placing Eugenes ethnicity is hard, but if I had to I'd say he was Italian or French/Italian.

Poly · Jun 9, 2017

I'm still sticking with Julius Caesar.

PrinceofOrange · Jun 11, 2017

Napoleon? Italian? Hardly? Corsica has always had a seperate culture than that of mainland Italians. Reaching back all the way to the time of the Roman Republic. Even then it was one of Rome's closest most unruly provinces. I understand the ethnic argument in that Napoleon's parents were of Tuscan and Genoan lineage originally, but for the sake of historical clarity I think we best stick to the fact that Napoleon was either a Corsican general or French.

Polynikes · Jun 11, 2017

PrinceofOrange said:
Napoleon? Italian? Hardly? Corsica has always had a seperate culture than that of mainland Italians. Reaching back all the way to the time of the Roman Republic. Even then it was one of Rome's closest most unruly provinces. I understand the ethnic argument in that Napoleon's parents were of Tuscan and Genoan lineage originally, but for the sake of historical clarity I think we best stick to the fact that Napoleon was either a Corsican general or French.

He was an Ethnic Italian, and identified himself as being Italian. He frequently referred to his people as those who build 'Empires' in reference to the Romans.

Polynikes · Jun 11, 2017

martin76 said:
Ridicolous... Was Philip II Italian? Because Philip II is his great great grandfather... Was Catalina Micaela de Austria italian? Not, it isn ´t... His family came from France-Savoie-Spain-Switzerland-Empire-England-Burgundian etc etc..

So.. not from one place.

But you should read the Prinz Euge lines.. Yes, Philip II (habsburg-Trastamara) was his great great grandfather

Wow, he has a lot more ethnic Italian ancestry than I had expected. Thanks for proving my point that he's mostly Italian, therefore an ethnic Italian in his own right. Thanks!

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Greatest Generals Italy ever produced?

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kazeuma

Polynikes

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