Old Europe (Vinca) language and culture in early layers of Serbian and Irish culture

dublin · Jul 17, 2013

I think I have found god. Literally.

I have spent last couple of days thinking about the link between the names of Dabog and Dagda.

Dabog = da bog

In Serbian, "da" means "yes", as in confirmation word, "to" as in "to be" "da bude" meaning "to happen", and "to give or gives"

So Dabog = the god who gives, or the one who makes things happen

In Serbian, every prayer or curse, (they are treated as the same in Serbia and are addressed to "bog" - god) starts with:

Da bog da...

This literally means: "may god give, may god make it happen..."

In light of this, could Dagda actually be = da god da (???) where Slavic word "bog" from "da bog da" is replaced with "Germanic" word "god". Is this possible? Actually it seems that it is. Tuatha came from south Baltic from the land of Pomorjani, western Slavs, Sorbs. We have seen that western Slavic languages (now extinct) lie between today's central European Slavic and Germanic languages. Is it possible that bog and god were interchangeable and that they both mean god?

Something made me go and check etymology of the word "god" and it seems no one really knows where it came from and what it's original root was. There are couple of conflicting etymological proposals but nothing really that would connect the word with its meaning. What is also interesting is that the translation of the bible into the "gothic" language was done in the balkans:

The English word God continues the Old English God (guþ, gudis in Gothic, gud in modern Scandinavian, God in Dutch, and Gott in modern German), which is thought to derive from Proto-Germanic *ǥuđán.The Proto-Germanic meaning of *ǥuđán and its etymology is uncertain...The earliest uses of the word God in Germanic writing is often cited to be in the Gothic Bible or Wulfila Bible, which is the Christian Bible as translated by Wulfila (a.k.a. Bishop Ulfilas) into the Gothic language spoken by the Eastern Germanic, or Gothic Tribes. The oldest parts of the Gothic Bible, contained in the Codex Argenteus, is estimated to be from the fourth century. During the fourth century, the Goths were converted to Christianity, largely through the efforts of Bishop Ulfilas, who translated the Bible into the Gothic language in Nicopolis ad Istrum in today's northern Bulgaria. The words guda and guþ were used for God in the Gothic Bible....

God (word) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Nicopolis ad Istrum (Greek: Νικόπολις η προς Ίστρον) was a Roman and Early Byzantine town founded by Emperor Trajan around 101–106, at the junction of the Iatrus (Yantra) and the Rositsa rivers, in memory of his victory over the Dacians. Its ruins are located at the village of Nikyup, 20 km north of Veliko Tarnovo in northern Bulgaria. The town reached its floruit during the reigns of Trajan, Hadrian, the Antonines and the Severan dynasty.

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicopolis_ad_Istrum]Nicopolis ad Istrum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

So we are back in the Balkans to look for the origin of the word "god" in the city built by Iberian Trajan.

During the complex christianization of the Germanic tribes of Europe, there were many linguistic influences upon the Christian missionaries. One example post downfall of the western Roman Empire are the missionaries from Rome led by Augustine of Canterbury. Augustine's mission to the Saxons in southern Britain was conducted at a time when the city of Rome was a part of a Lombardic kingdom. The translated bibles which they brought on their mission were greatly influenced by the Germanic tribes they were in contact with, chief among them being the Lombards and Franks. The translation for the word deus of the Latin bible was influenced by the then current usage by the tribes for their highest deity, namely Wodan by Angles, Saxons and Franks of north-central and western Europe and Godan by the Lombards of south-central Europe around Rome. There are many instances where the name Godan and Wodan are contracted to God and Wod.[4] One instance is the wild hunt (a.k.a. Wodan's wild hunt) where Wod is used.[5][6]

God (word) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So What is suggested is that Godan was a Longobardic main deity and that his name became the base for the word "god" meaning god. We have seen that latest archaeological evidence from Germany suggests that Longobards and Western polabian Slavs Obodrites were one and the same. Does then Longobardic Godan simply mean god-dan, god given, where "god" means god in Longobardic and "dan" means given in Serbian? But how can we mix "Germanic" god and Slavic dan? We can because god is a Serbian word which means god.

In Serbian we have word god which means:

1. A year
2. a tree ring.
3. Something that exists
4. Something that happens
5. good, just right
6. time, moment
7. big holy day in serbia
8. names day,
9. celebration of the saint protector of the family or clan day (slava),
10. family or clan god

Saint protectors of the family clans is a uniquely Serbian tradition. Serbs, believe that they descend from gods and celebrate gods as their ancestors. The main ancestor of the Serbs is Dabog, the sun god. In Serbian old religion, sun is a living being, which gets born and dies every year. If sun (dabog) was the main god of the Serbs, and he lived through one year cycles, then there is no surprise that a year in Serbian is called "god-ina", the life of god, the duration of god's life. And it is only logical that a tree ring that marks one life cycle of the sun god is called "god". The sun god, Dabog, later became god, bog of the Christianized Serbs in the Balkans.
Apart from the main god ancestor of the people, every Serbian clan then had other lower level gods as their ancestors. Each clan had its own god ancestor celebrated on a particular astronomically and meteorological important day during the sun cycle. This is where god, meaning moment in time, a moment in Sun's life, became a word signifying a god, an aspect of the Sun manifested on that particular day in the sun's cycle. This is why each of these small gods was an aspect of Dabog, the sun god and a part of it. The saints protectors are just Christianised old small clan gods.

Based on this root we have the following words:

god = time, moment
za-god-a = on time, at the right moment, when god intended
god, god-ina = a year, a yearly cycle of the sun.
god-ina = rain
god-ina = weather, climate.
god-ovati = to celebrate a god, originally probably to celebrate a god.
god-ovnjak = someone who celebrates
god, god-ovno, god-et = names day, slava, saint day, originally a celebration of a particular god
pri-god-a = a special occasion, originally a celebration of a god
pri-god-an = appropriate, worthy, originally probably related to offerings and ceremonies dedicated to a particular god.

s-god-iti se = s-biti se = to happen. Serbian word s(a) means with. so "s god" means with god, to be aligned with god's will, with god's will, with god's help, because things only happen if god wants them to happen.
u-god-iti = to make it happen, to make it good, to make it pleasing to god and people
na-god-iti se = to agree, to make it happen because we agreed, to agree before god, to take oath.
pri-god-iti = prepare, make happen. Serbian word "pri" has the same meaning as s(a): with, next to, aligned with. So "pri god" means with god, and "pri-god-iti" means to make it happen with god' help.

do-god-iti se = to happen. This probably comes from "dao-god-iti se". Serbian word "dao" means "gave, allowed", so the meaning is literally god allowed it, god gave it.
od-god-iti = prevent from happening, delay.
god-iti = to cook, prepare food, to make, to be pleasant, to be agreeable

po-god-iti = to hit the target, to guess. Serbian word "po" among other things means "based on, after", so the meaning is literally based on god's will, something that happens when god wants it, to guess god'd will
po-god-an = suitable, good, following god's will.
po-god-a = something good that happens, what happens when you follow god's will or when god wants it to happen.
ne-po-god-a = something bad that happens, what happens when you do not fallow god's will, or when god does not want it to happen.
po-god-ica = something that makes things easier, something given by god to make things easier
s-god-a = something good that happens, something that happens as we expect it to happen, something that happens when you follow god's will or when god wants it to happen.
ne-s-god-a = something bad that happens, something that doesn't happen as we expect it to happen, something that happens when you don't follow god's will or when god doesn't want it to happen.
s-god-an = good, beautiful, good looking, pleasant, lucky, something that we get when we have god on our side.
ne-s-god-an = bad, not beautiful, unpleasant, something that we get when we don't have god on our side.

la-god-an = pleasant, easily obtained, easily made to happen from "lako god", something that god made easy with his help.
pri-la-god-iti se = to adjust to circumstances. In Serbian "pri" means come closer, be close to, "lak" means easy, so the whole expression literally means get closer to god's will, to what god will give easily

kako god = kako bilo = no matter how (it happens), which ever way god wants.
sta god = sta bilo = what ever (happens), whatever god wants
gde god = gde bilo = where ever (it happens), wherever god wants
ko-god, kigodi, kegodi, kimgodi... = who ever, who ever god sends

There is a saying: "bog godi pa sgodi", meanaing: god is, lives, makes and everything is made by him.

This set of words completely describes a belief in omnipotent sun god, whose will needs to be guessed in order to insure that our enterprises are going to be successful. Everything good happens because god wants it and everything bad happens because god does not want it to happen.

From this i will propose that the actual old Serbian word for a god was "god" and that there was only one "bog": the Sun god "dabog". So from here dabogda and dagodda are interchangeable and mean the same thing: god gives. This means that Dagda, Dagoda, Da god da means the same as Da bog da and that they are one and the same god.

Hypatian Codex, is a 15th-century compilation of several much older documents from the Ipatiev Monastery in Russia. It contains a Slavic translation of an original Greek manuscript of John Malalas from the 6th century. The complete passage, reconstructed from several manuscripts, translates as follows:

(Then) began his reign Feosta (Hephaestus), whom the Egyptians called Svarog … during his rule, from the heavens fell the smith’s prongs and weapons were forged for the first time; before that, (people) fought with clubs and stones. Feosta also commanded the women that they should have only a single husband… and that is why Egyptians called him Svarog… After him ruled his son, his name was the Sun, and they called him Dažbog… Sun tzar, son of Svarog, this is Dažbog (Dabog). In the Greek text, the names of gods are Hephaestus and Helios...

Svarog is the galaxy, the milky way, the forger of stars. Dabog is Svarožić, a sun of Swarog, the Sun god, the giver of light, the rain, the life. But Svarožić is Svarog as it is a part of it and we are descendants of Dabog the Svarožić the son of Svarog and therefore we are descendants of Svarog himself.

Hephaestus’s ugly appearance and lameness is taken by some to represent arsenicosis, an effect of low levels of arsenic exposure that would result in lameness and skin cancers. In place of less easily available tin, arsenic was added to copper in the Bronze Age to harden it; like the hatters, crazed by their exposure to mercury, who inspired Lewis Carroll's famous character of the Mad Hatter, most smiths of the Bronze Age would have suffered from chronic poisoning as a result of their livelihood. Consequently, the mythic image of the lame smith is widespread.[36]

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hephaestus]Hephaestus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

Dabog, Dazbog (Hromi Daba) was a god of the Sun, flame and rain. One of his names was Dazdbog, and “dazd” in many Slavic languages means rain (Slovak, Czech, Russian, Polish…). The rain was important because harvests depended upon it. In times of drought many rain invoking rituals were performed.

www.starisloveni.com :: Stari Sloveni, Dazbog,Staroslovenska mitologija, religija i istorija
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dažbog

This is what Irish legend says about Crom Dubh:

For that reason they could not put trust in any person beyond Crom Dubh, because they thought, bad as he was, that it was he who was giving them the light of the day, the darkness of the night, and the change of seasons. It was well, brother of my heart.

St. Patrick and Crom Dubh

In Serbian word for lame is "hrom". I believe that "hromi Daba", the other secret name for Dabog in Serbian mythology was originally "hromi Dabog", meaning lame all giving god. Did this god represent an aspect of Dabog or Svarog or Both Svarog and Dabog as one i don't know. This is still a mystery to me, and I would love someone to help me to figgure this one out. But what I am pretty sure about is that the Irish main pre-Christian god, "Crom Dubh", is actually "Hromi Daba" or more precisely "Hromi Dabog", the Sun god, the father of the Serbs and probably (some of) the Irish too.

dublin · Aug 1, 2013

Hi all. It has been a long time. I hope you are all well. We are in the middle of the dog days and god Lugh has granted us rain, which supposed to be a good omen.

Do you remember the discussion entitled: "Long beards, long ears, long blades and long spears" and the strange connection between the Laigin, Longobards, Serbs, Hittites and the story about the king with horse's or goat's long ears?

What is interesting is that god lugh was also described with long ears:

This god (Lugus) is shown together with birds; horses; the Oriental Tree of Life motif; dogs or wolves; and twin serpents. But the imagery most intimately connected to him is the mistletoe leaf or berry. Most often the mistletoe leaves are shown at either side of his head, like horns or ears; but sometimes the symbolism is reversed, and the god's head appears as the berry of a mistletoe plant.

Lugus (Lugh) : The Many-Gifted Lord

Here are some pictures of Lugus with big ears:

Are long ears mistletoe leaves or actual ears or horns? But it is very interesting to find that Lugh, who was descendant of both P(F)omorians and Tuatha Dé Danann was known as a spear-man as well.

The first recension of Lebor Gabála describes the Tuatha Dé Danann as having resided in "the northern islands of the world", where they were instructed in the magic arts, before finally moving in dark clouds to Connaught in Ireland. It mentions only the Lia Fáil as having been imported from across the sea.[3]
One of the recensions of Lebar Gabála, Cath Maige Tuired and a separate text elaborate on these events. CMT and LG tell that there were four cities located on the northern islands of the world (i n-insib tūascertachaib in domain), called Falias, Gorias, Findias and Murias.[4] "The Four Jewels" also refers to the cities, but appears to locate them at Lochlann and contends that the Tuatha Dé crossed the seas in their fleet rather than in a mist. The Tuatha Dé Danann — described as the offspring of Béothach son of Iarbonel — landed here to be instructed in the magic arts, embracing druidry (druidecht), knowledge (fis), prophecy (fáitsine) and skill in magic (amainsecht). Each island is said to have had its poet (fili) who was skilled in occult arts.[5]
When the Tuatha Dé migrated to Ireland, they are said to have brought four magical instruments from these cities:

Falias: Stone of Fál (Lia Fáil) It would cry out beneath the king who took the sovereignty of Ireland. It was supposedly located near the Hill of Tara in County Meath.
Goirias or Gorias: Spear (sleg) of Lug No battle was ever sustained against it, or against the man who held it.
Findias: Sword (claideb/claiomh solais) which belonged to Núadu No one ever escaped from it once it was drawn from its sheath, and no one could resist it. The sword is also described in the Tain legend as 'Nuadu's Cainnel' - a glowing bright torch[citation needed].
Muirias or Murias: Cauldron (coire) of the Dagda. No company ever went away from it unsatisfied.

Four Treasures of the Tuatha Dé Danann - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What is more it seems that the spear have survived the demise of Lugh and has been found in hands of some very interesting characters:

In the Ulster Cycle of early Irish literature, the Lúin of Celtchar (Irish: Lúin Celtchair) is the name of a long, fiery lance or spear belonging to Celtchar mac Uthechar and wielded by other heroes, such as Dubthach, Mac Cécht and Fedlimid.

Arthur C. L. Brown and R. S. Loomis, proponents of the Irish origin of the Grail romances, argued that Celtchar's Lúin was to be identified with the spear of Lug,[11] a weapon which is named in Middle Irish narratives as one of the four items which the Túatha Dé Danann introduced to Ireland. A connection may have been drawn implicitly by Togail Bruidne Dá Derga, which claims that the Lúin was found in the Battle of Mag Tuired, elsewhere known as the battle in which the Túatha Dé Danann led by Lug defeated the Fomoiri. Moreover, a tale of later date, the Early Modern Irish Oidheadh Chloinne Tuireann describes the spear of Lug in ways which are reminiscent of Celtchair's Lúin. However, the Middle Irish references to Lug's spear do not correspond closely to the Lúin.[12]

Lúin of Celtchar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So both Pomorijans and Tuatha came from the north west from across the sea. And Lugh who descended from both, had long ears and long spear. But this is not all that connects Pomorijans, Tuatha and Laigin:

Dún Naas was one of the three Royal Sites in ancient Leinster Province. According to oral history, the hillfort was founded by Lugh Lamfota (Lugh of the Long Arm). The site was later "Christianized by a number of visits from St. Patrick.

In annuals and records the name of Naas appears in three forms: An Nás, meaning "The Place of Assembly;" Nas Laighean meaning "The Place of The Leinstermen;" and Nás na Riogh meaning "The Place of Assembly of the Kings." The original Dún of Naas destroyed by King Tuathaill Teachtmhar in 134 AD was rebuilt by Luighdech Eithlenn, King of Leinster in 140 AD. It was burned down by Cormac Mac Airt, High King of Ireland in 277 AD to avenge the massacre of thirty royal maidens and a large number of their attendants by the Leinster king, Dunlang. According to the Dindsenchas, it was rebuilt once more by the legendary Princess Tailtinn. The "Four Masters" tells that in 705 Conall Cinn Maghair, son of Fergus of Fanat, led an army into Leinster, devastated Naas, carrying away hostages, and tribute. He composed a poetic farewell to the Liffey, in which he praises the unbroken level grass-producing surface of its plain, as far as the Dun of Naas . The "Annals of Ulster" mention its ruin quoting the ancient poem by Conall, which implies that the royal residence was a large single-roofed house on the Dún. "Thou wert safe, except thy roof, O Dún of Naas. The plain of Liffey ... today it is a scorched place."

Dun Naas consists of two "motes" (earthwork mounds), North and South. The North mote is ten meters high with a diameter of almost a hundred meters at the base. This was constructed during the Viking era on the site of the original Dun. The south mote is now reduced to just a low hill and shows no evidence of fortifications.

Bardic History relates that it was founded by Lugh Lamfota, and according to ancient tradition the original founders commenced the building of the of the town somewhere in the townland of Broadfield. Naas was the capital of the district anciently called Airthear Life and was on the border between Ui Faolain- the O'Byrne Kingdom, and the Ui Muiri - the O'Toole Kingdom. The Dun or Fort was considered almost unpregnable in ancient times. It was almost certainly built on the site of the North Moat, which is still intact, and commands the town from a central position, behind the town hall. The South Moat has disappeared as such, and its site is now a large low hillock which is the Fair Green.

The Dun of Naas existed at a very early period. It is mentioned in connection with the legendary origin of the Boroma Laighain or Leinster Tribute in the reign of the High King of Ireland Tuathail Teachtmhar in the second century. Tuthail had two beautiful daughters, Fithir and Darina. The King of Leinster at that time was Eochy Aincheaun, married Darina and carried her off to his Palace at Naas. Eochy was also determined to get his hands on her sister Fithir, as his second wife. so he shut up Darina in a room in his palace, and sent out a report that she was dead. He then went to Tara, in a great appearance of grief and informed Tuathail that his daughter was dead, and asked for her sister. Tuthail consented, and Eochy returned home to Naas with his new wife. Soon afterwards, however, Darina, escaping from her prison, unexpectedly met her husband and her sister. Her sister fell dead before her face, and the young Queen Darina soon died of a broken heart.

134 AD

Tuthail, at the head of a powerful force, avenged the insult to his daughter by conquering and beheading Eochy. And O'Flaherty's Ogygia informs us that Naas was destroyed and the inhabitants massacred. He levied a Leinster Tribute of 6000 ounces of Silver, 6000 richly woven mantles, and 6000 cows, hogs, and sheep, every two years. this was abolished in 680 AD by King Finachtach. It was however revived 300 years later by Brian Boro, King of Munster, hence his name Boroime.

277 AD

The Dun of Naas built by Luighdech Eithlenn King of Leinster, was burnt by Cormac Mac Art, a powerful High King of Ireland, whose laws remained in force throughout the middle ages. This was done to avenge the massacre by Dunlang, King of Leinster, of thirty royal maidens, with a large number of their attendants.

Dún Naas

What does (Nás) Naas actually mean in Gaelic? Nothing. It has no meaning in Gaelic. But the name is connected to Lugh:

The arms incorporate a snake. The motto - Prudens ut Serpens - means The Wisdom of the Snake. The specific origin of the snake in the coat of arms is unknown.

The Naassenes (Greek Naasseni, possibly from Hebrew נָחָשׁ naḥash, snake)[citation needed] were a Christian Gnostic sect from around 100 AD known only through the writings of Hippolytus of Rome.

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naassenes]Naassenes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ophites]Ophites - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

They had two symbols: the snake and "celtic cross":

These "celtic" crosses appear all over europe, from Langdock where they are called Cathar crosses:

Steles discoidales

to Central Europe and particularly Eastern Serbia, the land of king Trojan with goat's ears:

Who was the main teacher of Gnostic, Hermetic knowledge? Hermes Trismegistus - "thrice-greatest Hermes" or Mercurius ter Maximus.

Hermes Trismegistus (Ancient Greek: Ἑρμῆς ὁ Τρισμέγιστος, "thrice-greatest Hermes"; Latin: Mercurius ter Maximus) is the purported author of the Hermetic Corpus, a series of sacred texts that are the basis of Hermeticism.

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermes_Trismegistus]Hermes Trismegistus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

And who was Lugh compared to? Hermes or Mercury. Lugh was also always associated with snakes. And he was often depicted with three heads so he was indeed thrice-greatest. Here is a depiction of Lugus, Lugh:

So naas, the snake town, was a fitting name for the snake god.

dublin · Aug 1, 2013

Naas was later the capital of the northern Laigin of the sept Uí Fáeláin:

Uí Fáeláin sept of the Uí Dúnlainge branch of the Laigin. This sept had their royal seat at Naas in the eastern part of the Liffey plain.

The word "faolán" is derived from the Old Irish word "faelán" meaning a small wolf; '-án' being of the diminutive suffix in Irish. Interestingly Lugh is also connected with wolves:

What is interesting is that Lugh (Lugus) was also connected with wolves (hounds). In Irish "Cú" can mean hound or a wolf or a wolf hound (cross between wolves and dogs).

The iconography of Gaulish Mercury includes birds, particularly ravens and the ...., now the emblem of France; horses; the tree of life; dogs or wolves; a pair of snakes (cf Hermes's Caduceus); mistletoe; shoes (one of the dedications to the Lugoves was made by a shoemakers' guild; Lugus's Welsh counterpart Lleu (or Llew) Llaw Gyffes is described in the Welsh Triads as one of the "three golden shoemakers of the island of Britain"); and bags of money. He is often armed with a spear. He is frequently accompanied by his consort Rosmerta ("great provider"), who bears the ritual drink with which kingship was conferred (in Roman mythology). Unlike the Roman Mercury, who is always a youth, Gaulish Mercury is occasionally also represented as an old man.

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lugus]Lugus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

There may be further triplism associated with his birth. His father in the folktale is one of a triad of brothers, Mac Cinnfhaelaidh, Gavida and Mac Samthainn, and his father in the medieval texts, Cian, is often mentioned together with his brothers Cú and Cethen.[4] Two characters called Lugaid, a popular medieval Irish name thought to derive from Lugh, have three fathers: Lugaid Riab nDerg (Lugaid of the Red Stripes) was the son of the three Findemna or fair triplets,[5] and Lugaid mac Con Roí was also known as mac Trí Con, "son of three hounds".[6] In Ireland's other great "sequestered maiden" story, the tragedy of Deirdre, the king's intended is carried off by three brothers, who are hunters with hounds.[7] The canine imagery continues with Cian's brother Cú ("hound"), another Lugaid, Lugaid Mac Con (son of a hound), and Lugh's son Cúchulainn ("Culann's Hound").[8] A fourth Lugaid was Lugaid Loígde, a legendary King of Tara and ancestor of (or inspiration for) Lugaid Mac Con.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lugh

So Lugh, the triple god has a wolf (hound) son. He also had a war wolf (hound) of unusual properties:

A gigantic black war dog five feet tall at the shoulder, the Hound of Lugh is a fearsome sight on the battlefield. While the dog is a ferocious combatant, its primary use to Scions comes from its superlative senses. The hound can unerringly track prey across forest, desert, tundra or any other environment. The Creature is courageous to a fault, and surprisingly intelligent for an animal.

Here is more about this amasing wolf (hound) of Lugh

Fáil Inis was a hound-whelp owned by Lugh Lámhfhada of the Tuatha Dé Danann in the Mythological Cycle of Irish literature. The hound was invincible in battle, caught every wild beast it encountered, and could magically change any running water it bathed in into wine.[1] It was one of the prizes exacted from the children of Tuireann (Brían, Iuchar and Iucharba) as reparation for the slaying of Lugh's father Cian.[2]
By the same name, or nearly so (Failinis or Ṡalinnis), this hound of Lugh also occurs in recensions of a certain medieval ballad from the Fenian cycle. The ballad relates how the wonder-dog is brought to Ireland by a threesome (also from "Iruaid"). A variant telling of this threesome also occurs in The Colloquy of the Elders, though the dog's name there is Fer Mac.

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Failinis]Failinis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

Here the hound is actually called "Fáil Inis" = "Fáilinis" which i believe is the corruption of the "Fáeláin" "faolán" little wolf.

Aided Chloinne Tuireann

The hound's name Failinis appears in the full narrative version of The Fate of the Children of Tuireann (see Brian (mythology), Tuireann), which only survives in manuscripts from early 18th century and later. However, neither dog nor its name is by any means a concoction of late tradition. The Lebor Gabála Éirenn (Book of Invasions) gives a brief account of Lugh's demands, according to which he obtained "the whelp of the royal smith of Ioruath" (Irish: Cuilen rīg goband na Hiruaidhe) which was "a hound by night and a sheep by day" and whatever pool of water touched its hide (Irish: croccenn) turned to wine.[9] The hound's name is not specifically given in the Book of Invasions.

12th-century ballad

However, the name of Lugh's dog Failinis is indeed recorded in Medieval manuscripts. It occurs in a certain "ballad" (Irish: dúan) starting with the line "They came a band of three…" (Irish: "Dám Thrír Táncatair Ille). It has been characterized by Stern as an Ossianic ballad of the 12th century, i.e., a poem in the pretext of a work by Oisín in reminiscence of the Fianna's past. The ballad relates how a threesome from Iruaid brings along a magical dog (Irish: Ṡalinnis (Shalinnis) (LL version)[10] / Failinis (Lismore version))[11]) which turns any fresh water (spring water) it touches into mead or wine. The dog once belonged to Lugh of the mantles (Irish: Lugh na Lenn, a corruption of Lugh's matronymic "Lugh mac Ethlenn"[12]). The hound is responsible for the death of one of the Fianna (Dubán mac Bresail) so that the threesome (Sela, Dorait, Domnán) forfeit the dog as compensation. The Fianna then kill the hound and flay its hide (presumably with its wine-making powers intact), and carry it off into foreign campaigns.

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Failinis]Failinis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

This magical wolf by night and sheep by day, who turns water to wine, belonged to Lugh and killed one of the Fianna called: Dubán mac Bresail. Who is this Dubán mac Bresail?

In Irish mythology, Bres (aka Eochaid Bres or Eochu Bres; modern spelling: Breas or Eochaidh Breas) was a king of the Tuatha Dé Danann. His parents were Prince Elatha of the Fomorians and Eri, daughter of Delbaith. He was an unpopular king, and favoured his Fomorian kin. He led the Fomorians in the Second Battle of Magh Tuireadh but lost. He was found unprotected on the battlefield by Lugh and pleaded for his life. Lugh spared him because he promised to teach the Tuatha Dé agriculture.

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bres]Bres - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

The old god of Fomorians was Crom Dubh, the god of agriculture among other things. He was also probably the ancestor of Fomorians as well. So Bres was Bres mac Dubh and he was defeated by Lugh who was also mac Dubh. Is the story about Dubán mac Bresail being killed by hound (wolf) Fáilinis just another version of the story of Bres and Lugh where Lugh is directly linked to wolves?

Do you remember the magic spear of Lugh?

In the Ulster Cycle of early Irish literature, the Lúin of Celtchar (Irish: Lúin Celtchair) is the name of a long, fiery lance or spear belonging to Celtchar mac Uthechar and wielded by other heroes, such as Dubthach, Mac Cécht and Fedlimid.

If we look at the owner of the spear we find lots of wolf (hounds) as well:

Celtchar (or Celtchair), son of Uthechar or Uthidir, is a character from the Ulster Cycle of Irish Mythology. In Scéla Mucce Maic Dathó ("The Tale of Mac Dathó's Pig") he is described as "a grey, tall, very terrible hero of Ulster".
In compensation for murdering Blaí Briugu, who had slept with his wife, Celtchar has to rid Ulster of three menaces.

The first is Conganchnes mac Dedad, who seeks revenge for the death of his nephew Cú Roí, and who has skin like horn, which no weapon can pierce. Celtchar offers him his daughter Niam in marriage, who discovers that Conganchnes can only be killed by hammering red hot spits into the soles of his feet. She passes the information to her father, who does the deed.

The second menace is a ferocious dog called Luch Donn ("brown mouse"). It had been found as a pup by a widow, who raised it until it was enormous and uncontrollable. It killed all the widow's sheep and cattle, then her sons, and finally the widow herself, and now it devastates a settlement every night. Celtchar finds an alder log, hollows it out so his arm will fit through it, and boils it in honey, grease and herbs until it tough and supple. He approaches the dog with the log over his arm, and when the dog bites into it its teeth get stuck, enabling Celtchar to pull its heart out through its throat, killing it.

The third menace is Dóelchú, Celtchar's own dog. It was found as a pup inside Conganchnes's burial mound, and would only let Celtchar handle it, until one day it escaped, and became a menace to the cattle and sheep of Ulster. Celtchar finds the dog and calls to it, and it comes and licks his feet. Reluctantly, Celtchar dispatches it with his spear. As he lifts the spear, a drop of the dog's poisonous blood runs down it and through Celtchar's body, killing him.

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtchar_mac_Uthechar]Celtchar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

All three menaces are connected with Lugh:

Lugh was associated with coblers and making shoes. So killing Conganchnes mac Dedad by hammering red hot spits into the soles of his feet is a ritual killing of Lugh or in Lugh's name. Luch Donn is not a "brown mouse". Lugh Donn is Lugh son of Don, Dana. Celtchar's own dog Dóelchú was found as a pup inside Conganchnes's burial mound. He is reincarnation of Lugh, Lugh resurrected. His name "Dóelchú" is probably mangled from "faolchu" meaning wolf. This wolf is the spirit of Lugh. He gets killed with the spear of Lugh. But Lugh, the wolf god, the wolf shepherd, the wolf king is immortal and can not be killed. The proof of this is that Dóelchú faolchu kills Celtchar after his death with a drop of blood that drips down Lugh's spear.

Then there is Cú Roí wolf (hound) king.

Cú Roí (Cú Ruí, Cú Raoi) mac Dáire is a king of Munster in the Ulster Cycle of Irish mythology. He is usually portrayed as a warrior with superhuman abilities and a master of disguise possessed of magical powers. Though often an outsider figure, for instance in the role of intervener or arbitrator, Cú Roí appears in a great number of medieval Irish texts, including Forfess Fer Fálgae, Amra Con Roi, Brinna Ferchertne, Aided Chon Roi (in several recensions), Fled Bricrenn, Mesca Ulad and Táin Bó Cúailnge. The early Irish tale-lists refer to such titles as Aided Chon Roí, Echtra Chon Roí (List A), Orgain Chathrach Chon Roí and Cathbúada Con Roí (List B), but only the first of these tales can be shown to have survived in some form.[4] Several tales describe the enmity between him and the Ulster hero Cú Chulainn, who eventually kills him.
Cú Roí plays an important role in the 8th-century tale Fled Bricrenn (Bricriu's Feast). The trickster Bricriu incites the heroes Cú Chulainn, Conall Cernach and Lóegaire Búadach to compete for the champion's portion at a feast, and Cú Roí is one of those who judged among them. Like all the other judges, he chooses Cú Chulainn, but Conall and Lóegaire refuse to accept his verdict. When the three heroes return to Ulster, Cú Roí appears to each in the guise of a hideous churl (bachlach) and challenges them to behead him, then allow him to return and behead them. Only Cú Chulainn is brave and honourable enough to submit himself to the churl's axe, so he is declared champion. This story is related to the "beheading game" motif appearing in many later works in Arthurian literature - most famously the 14th-century English poem Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, although closer correspondences are to be found in Diu Crone and la Mule sans Frein, both of which feature a revolving fortress like Cu Roi's.
The episode appears as Aislinge n-Aimirgin ("The trance of Amairgin") in Recension I of the Táin.[8] Having followed news of Cú Chulainn's sustained success in single-handedly opposing the Connacht army, Cú Roí once again appears on the scene, this time to fight Cú Chulainn directly. However, on finding Cú Chulainn weak from the injuries which Ferdiad had recently inflicted on him, he refused to carry out his original plan. Instead he faces the giant warrior poet Amairgin...
Cú Roí's death by Cú Chulainn's hand is the subject of the tale Aided Con Roi, which survives in two versions. A number of tales describe enmity between the two warriors, and some allude to a lost story of its origin. Texts such as Forfess Fer Fálgae and Siaburcharpát Con Culainn describe a raid on Inis Fer Falga (possibly the Isle of Man) in which Cú Roí and Cú Chulainn come into conflict. The texts indicate that two were involved in an Ulster raid on the Fir Falgae, with Cú Roí participating again in disguise. They steal treasure and abduct Bláthnat, daughter of the king of the island, who loves Cú Chulainn. But when Cú Roí is asked to choose his share, he chooses Bláthnat. Cú Chulainn tries to stop him taking her, but Cú Roí drives him into the ground up to his armpits and cuts off his hair before escaping, taking Bláthnat with him.
Aided Con Roí[edit]
Later, Bláthnat (Blanaid) betrays Cú Roí to Cú Chulainn, who besieges his fort and killed him. In one version of the story, Cú Roí's soul was hidden in an apple in the belly of a salmon which lived in a stream in the Slieve Mish Mountains, and only surfaced once every seven years; Bláthnat discovered the secret and told Cú Chulainn, who killed the fish, enabling him to kill Cú Roí. However Ferchertne, Cú Roí's poet, enraged at the betrayal of his lord, grabbed Bláthnat and leaped off a cliff, killing her and himself.
Cú Roí's uncle (or brother or nephew), Conganchnes ("Horn-skinned"), tried to avenge him, but was killed by Celtchar. His son, Lugaid mac Con Roí, later succeedes in avenging him by killing Cú Chulainn, a story told in Aided Con Culainn. Lugaid is himself killed by Conall Cernach.

Cú Roí - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Who is this wolf king, "a warrior with superhuman abilities and a master of disguise possessed of magical powers"? The king who chooses Cú Chulainn as his champion, refuses to fight him and then gets killed by him only to be revenged by his son called Lugaid mac Con Roí (lugh the son of the wolf king)?

Central to the Lúghnasadh ritual in its oldest form was an enactment of the myth of the season. Certainly some version or other of Cath Maige Tuired would have been the most popular material for this in early Ireland (even though the literary sources had the battle -- like virtually all supernatural events -- taking place on Samhain!), but a huge number of variants were possible. A person playing the role of Lúgh -- or of a local saint or hero who had taken on Lúgh's attributes -- would fight against the various monsters sent against him by the Fomorian god of the Land, and eventually triumph over the god of the Land himself. In modern Ireland the god of the Land is almost always Crom Dubh ("The Bent Black One" -- the holiday is often called Domhnach Croim Dhuibh -- "Crom Dubh's Sunday" -- after him), and one of the principal adversaries he sends against his challenger is a great bull41 (unlike horses, who symbolize the power of the Tribe, cattle represent the Land: cows are its nurturing aspect, but bulls show its destructive side). Lúgh's victory, in some cases, may have been dramatized as leaping over a stone head. "The Gaulish figure of the mounted cavalier prancing over a head emerging from the ground,or over a giant emerging from the ground, seems to illustrate this myth and may even be a representation of an acted rite."42

Lugus (Lugh) : The Many-Gifted Lord

Lúghnasadh is also known as Dé Domhnaigh Crum-Dubh. Crom dubh, hromi daba, Dabog was in Serbia also known as the wolf shepherd.

The Serbs more than any other people imagined Dazbog as a lame old man, dressed in animal skins, usually bear skin, accompanied by a wolf. The wolf actually stands for his animal incarnation, or his primary shape that did not cease to exist after Dazbog turned anthropomorphic. The wolf became a servant, and often a messenger as well. Although his basic form was anthropomorphic, Dazbog frequently changed his shape, and his earliest wolf form remained his symbol. As the Serbs considered themselves his descendants, the wolf became a sacred animal.

www.starisloveni.com :: Stari Sloveni, Dazbog,Staroslovenska mitologija, religija i istorija

Although these medieval documents come from the East Slavic area, names similar to Dažbog/Dažboh have survived in the folklores of both West and South Slavic populations. Of particular interest is the Serbian Dabog or Dajbog (most modern mythographers take for granted this is the same character as East Slavic Dažbog/Dažboh), also known as Hromi Daba (meaning "Daba the Lame"), described in folklore as a lame "shepherd of wolves", an ugly demon-lord who rules the underworld and travels through the world of men.

Da?bog - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Dabog is in Serbia also called Triglav or Trojan, the Three Headed god. And he is also known as Snake king:

http://sms.zrc-sazu.si/pdf/01/SMS_01_Loma.pdf

Among the tribes of the Laigin were the Luighne (Race of Lugh, part of the Cianacht, "Family of Cian") and the Dealbhne, the "Shining Race", which was split between the septs of Nuadat (Nuada) and Eathra (the Mariner, probably Manannan).

Lugh was the son of Crom Dubh, who was also known as Crom Cruach. Crom Cruach was also known as "the head of all gods".

12th century Life and Acts of St. Patrick tells much the same story. Here the god is called Cenncroithi, interpreted as "the head of all gods"

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crom_Cruach]Crom Cruach - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

Is Cianacht, "Family of Cian" then the family of "ceann", the head, crom dubh? The full genealogy of Laigin would then be sons of Lugh, sons of Crom Dubh...

Serbs call themselves sons of Hromi Daba, Dabog, Triglav, Snake king, Silver king, Wolf shepherd.

The Laigin, like the Tuatha Dé Danann, are also associated with the Cruithne. Beli Mawr, the husband of the goddess Danu, is the legendary founder the Deisi, later rulers of the British kingdom of Dyfed.

Who was this: Beli Mawr God of Light? also called Beli, Belin, Belinos, Belinus, Bellinus, Belenos.

beli: shining (modern Welsh: pelydur--radiant. It is common for b's and p's to mutate into one another in Welsh, depending on dialect and time period. Deriving from the Celtic word bel--to shine, to be bright. The old Celtic god was called Belinos/Belenos)

mawr: great, large

Legendary king of Britain, Beli either is in origin the Celtic sun god Belenos or was conflated with him at an early period, but here in his medieval form is consort to the (semi-hypothetical) earth mother Dôn...

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beli_Mawr]Beli Mawr - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
Beli Mawr

Beli in Serbian means "white". Belinos is Beli + nos = white + carry, has lots of. Beli, Belinos, Belin, all mean white, shining.

So who is Belinos actually: sun, light, Lugh, Dagda? What is relationship between Lugh, Crom Dubh, Dagda, Dabog, Hromi daba? How can a sun god, god of light be at the same time the god of the underworld?

I will try to explore in next good few posts.

I hope you have fun reading this.

Mosquito · Aug 5, 2013

My own city started as ringfort, and was looking around year 950-990 AD like this:

and here is even shown how it was being build, wooden skeleton filled inside with stones and from the outside covered with stone and earth.

dublin · Oct 22, 2013

I will continue my discussion abut Crom Dubh, Hromi Daba, Dabog, Dagda, Lug and how they all relate to each other. The problem is where to start. Well Dingle is as good a place as any.

If we look at pilgrim routes around County Kerry, in each case the origins of the Christian pilgrimage lie in ancient pagan celebrations, and are a continuaton of the spiritual life of the land from the days of Lug and Crom Dubh. Crom Dubh- “The Black Crooked One” appears in the story of the pilgrimage to Mount Brandon. The journey starts at Ventry Strand and travels over the Dingle peninsula along the "Saints ‘Road". This Pilgrimage is believed to be a continuation of the Ancient celebrations of Lughnasa, and is associated with the gods Lugh and Crom Dubh. In this story Saint Brendan is the Christian warrior battling the old pagan gods, and in various accounts he ousts Crom Dubh from the mountain, or converts him to Christianity. A carved stone head in the old church at Cloghane was believed to represent Crorn Dubh. Many physical objects in the modern landscape suggest evidence of the early Christian pilgrimage. Gallarus Oratory is situated near the route, and it has been suggested that this dry stone structure was built for the practical purpose of sheltering pilgrims during bad weather; however, Gallarus remains something of a mystery and there is no agreement either as to its date and purpose.

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallarus_Oratory"]Gallarus Oratory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
http://www.megalithicireland.com/Gallarus Oratory.htm

A boulder at Kilcolman is inscribed ‘Colnián the Pilgrim’, and the Arraglen stone pillar on the slopes of Brandon is carved with the Ogham inscription - ‘Ronan the Priest’. Obviously these all used to be holy stones associated with Crom Dubh, which were "converted" or "christianised". At Kilmajiceader there is a medieval church, with a number of bullaun stones. The stones were believed to be sacred and pilgrims may have splashed rainwater gathered in the hollows onto afflicted areas. On reaching the summit, pilgrims could rest against ‘Leac na nDrom’ — the stone of the backs, which was reputed to cure backache and rheumatism. Pilgrims made nine circuits of St Brendan’s well, and carried home water from the holy well. In modern times the pilgrimage is made on the last Sunday in July - Crom Dubh Sunday, and St Brendan’s Day - May 16th.

This is one of the versions of the story how st Brendan defeated Crom Dubh:

Saint Brendan and his brethren are erecting a church at Cloghane, at the foot of Mount Brandon. They ask the local pagan chieftain, Crom Dubh, for a contribution. He volunteers a bull, knowing full well that the bull is wild and dangerous. Brendan's monks attach a halter to the bull's neck and lead the animal placidly away. The bull was slaughtered and his meet was eaten by the workers and his blood was used for mortar. Crom Dubh is furious and demands the bull's return. Brendan writes the words Ave Maria on a slip of paper and suggests to Crom Dubh that the paper weighs more than the bull. Nonsense, asserts the pagan chieftain. A scale is arranged and, sure enough, the paper outweighs the bull. Crom Dubh is so impressed that he submits to conversion, along with all of his tribe. A pattern (patron saint day) to Crom Dubh's honor is held in the village of Ballybran on the last day of every July ever since. It is called in Irish Domach Crom Dubh (Crom Dubh Sunday). Some villagers add that the celebration of Domach Crom Dubh used to take place in the graveyard around the head which represented Crom Dubh. Marie MacNeill attested to the antiquity of the head and surmised that the stone was probably taken to the top of Mount Brendon for the harvest festival of Lughnasad. (From Irish folclore commission Archives)

from: "Saints, Scholars, and Schizophrenics: Mental Illness in Rural Ireland"

This story shows that the sacrificial animal of Crom Dubh was a bull. Bulls are always found as a replacement sacrifice used instead of human sacrifice and especially instead of king's sacrifice. The fact that the bull's blood was used for mortar points at human sacrifices performed to insure successful erection of buildings. This type of sacrifice is well documented in Europe and particularly in the Balkans. What is even more astonishing is the description of the saint's day celebration dedicated not to st Brendan but to Crom Dubh. I would suggest that word pattern comes from pater (father) as well as patron (protector). Hromi Daba, Dabog, the wolf king, the wolf shepard is considered to be the father of Serbs. So here in the hart of the Corcu Duibne land people we have a village of Ballybran which is an equivalent of Ballydubh as vran and dubh mean the black, dark, in Serbian. These people celebrate slava, saint protector day but ultimately celebration of the main ancestor of the Corcu Duibne: Crom Dubh. The fact the the original mass used to be held on the graveyard just confirms that what we have here is an ancestor cult celebration called slava, which only exists among the Serbs, and as we see now among some Irish as well.

Who was this Brendan the man who defeated Crom Dubh?

In 484 Brendan was born in Tralee, in County Kerry, in the province of Munster, in the south-west of Ireland.[5] He was born among the Altraige, a tribe originally centered around Tralee Bay, to parents called Finnlug and Cara.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brendan

When we look at the name of Brendan and his father we find something very interesting:

Finlug, Fionn Lugh, Finlug, Finnlug, Fionnlugh, Fionnlú, Finlag, Finlo, Fionnlaoch

Derived from Gaelic fionn "white, fair" and lug "light, brightness". The second element may refer to the pagan sun god Lugh, in which case it means "fair Lugh". This was the name of numerous minor early Irish saints ("three of the most often mentioned are Finnlug, the father of Saint Brendan; Finnlug of Doon (Co. Limerick); and Finnlug, the father of St Finnian of Clonard"), "which is curious, as the name combines those of two of the best-known pagan figures, Fionn mac Cumhaill and Lug Lámfhota... James Joyce cites the name as ‘Fynlogue’ in Finnegans Wake (1939), exploiting both the shadowy ambiguity and the possible associations with Fionn mac Cumhaill." It is probably an older form of Fionnlagh (a Christianized variant, in which the second element was replaced with laogh "hero, warrior").

So Brendan's father is Lugh, Crom Dubh. When we look at the name of his mother we realize that his mother Cara is Crom Dubh's wife Corra:

Crom was not a batchelor. We have 2 stories of Crom having a partner - 1) Aine or Corra, goddess of Ireland, and harvest deity, who lives on Cruachain Aigle aka The Reek or Croagh Patrick. 2) He attracted a familiar spirit that followed him. Her name is a generic: Linnaun shee, a fairy sweetheart; in Irish spelt "leannán sidhe." Linnaun-shee or more correct Lannaun-shee; a familiar spirit or fairy that attaches itself to a mortal and follows him. From Irish leannan, a lover, and sidh [shee], a fairy: lannaun-shee, 'fairy-lover.' This clearly tells us that Crom as a mortal had special powers sufficient to have a fairy lover... Crom’s two sons were called Téideach and Clonnach, they are made out to be even worse than Crom himself. Crom also had two dogs - Coinn Iothair (hound of rage) and Saidhthe Suaraighe (..... of wickedness).

A pilgrimage is made to Croagh Patrick on the last Sunday in July, and although such a pilgrimage is associated with Lughnasa, locally it is called Domnack Chrom Dubh (Crom Dubh's Sunday). Lough na Corra at the base of the mountain is thought to be the site where a demon named "Cora" was driven by the saint.

Saint Patrick fought one of his greatest battles at this site as he was lured into battled with Corra the triple goddess taking serpent form. From Loch Derg (Lake of the Cave) Patrick was abducted into the otherworld but he escaped which shows his victory not only over Corra but of all Paganism as it is said that after defeating Corra all snakes on Irish soil disappeared. But there is a hint on that Island the lake of the ‘cave’ and with Corra in snake form, for the ‘cave’ was a pagan sanctuary, with a temple of incubation – which practised this ritual of incubation of entering the otherworld through mind altering techniques or drugs. The snake was always associated with these sanctuaries as throughout Europe in similar temples they roamed free. It is well documented that the Romans wiped out such sanctuaries, wiping out these ancient practices, creating the way for Christianity – and so we have Saint Patrick fighting Corra, a symbolism of Irish Paganism.

Also, Brendan's own name could just be a bastardization of Bran as was suggested by Marie MacNeill. In Dingle locals claim that the true name of the Brendan's head peninsula is Bran's nose. What is interesting is that b and v sounds are interchangeable as they are produce using the same position of the speech apparatus and can be very easily morphed into one another. In Irish we actually don't have v. Instead we write bh and mh. Now vran in Serbian means black, vrana means crow and bavran or vran is a raven. In his book "The white goddess", Robert Graves calls Bran a Crow-god:

The Bran cult seems also to have been imported from the Aegean. There are remarkable resemblances between him and the Pelasgian hero Aesculapius who, like the chieftain Coronus ('crow') killed by Hercules, was a king of the Thessalian crow-totem tribe of Lapiths. Aesculapius was a Crow on both sides of the family: his mother was Coronis ('crow'), probably a tide of the Goddess Athene to whom the crow was sacred. Tatian, the Church Father, in his Address to the Greeks, suggests a mother and son relationship between Athene and Aesculapius: After the decapitation of the Gorgon .. . Athene and Aesculapius divided the blood between them, and while he saved lives by means of them, she by the same blood became a murderess and instigator of wars. Aesculapius's father was Apollo, who was first a god of the Underworld and then became a sun god.

http://72.52.202.216/~fenderse/The-White-Goddess.pdf

Because of their dark color and gruesome dietary habits, ravens were especially connected with gods of war and death. But those same gods were also associated with growth and fertility, so ravens were also symbols of new life. It was the raven that accompanied the souls of the dead to the afterlife, and portraits of the deceased often depicted them with the bird. Ravens were sometimes viewed as reincarnated warriors or heroes — the Welsh hero Owain had an army of invincible ravens, which are sometimes interpreted as an army of reincarnated warriors.

The warrior god Bendigeitvran, better known as “Bran the Blessed,” was for a time the Welsh/British father god; his name means “blessed raven.” Bran's head is rumored to be buried under the Tower of London, where it protects England against invaders. A persistent superstition regarding the tower is that should the ravens who inhabit it flee, England will be without protection.
The raven was the ruler of the domain of air and therefore of communication; the cry of the raven was often interpreted as the voice of the gods. Images of the gods Lugh and Bran often depict them with birds alighting on their heads and shoulders, symbolizing this divine communication. (The Norse god Odin, who is sometimes compared to Lugh and Bran, has as his companions two ravens called Thought and Memory.) For this reason, ravens were favored by the druids for use in divinatory ritual.

http://www.netplaces.com/celtic-wisdom/sacred-animals/birds-messengers-of-the-gods.htm

If raven was the ruler of the domain of air and therefore of communication, and it was associate with god Lugh who was also god of communication, and Serbian and Welsh word for raven is "vran" maybe this is why we have wren associated with Lugh. Is association of wren with Lugh miss translation of the original myth? I will talk about this later.

The Welsh mythological texts of the Mabinogion were recorded between the 14th and 15th centuries in Middle Welsh. As a result there are discrepancies regarding the spelling of names, because English translations maintain Middle Welsh orthography whereas Modern Welsh versions use Modern Welsh orthography. In Middle Welsh, there was some variation on the name Brân; other forms include Vran and Uran.

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bran_the_Blessed"]Bran the Blessed - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

John T. Koch proposes a number of parallels between the mythological Bendigeidfran and the historical Celtic chieftain Brennus, who invaded the Balkans in the 3rd century BC.[3]

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bran_the_Blessed"]Bran the Blessed - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

This is interesting. Was this 3rd century BC invasion just going back home? Or did all the glorious things from Irish Myths actually happen in the Balkans and were later brought and transplanted to Ireland?

Marie MacNeill also says that worship of St Brendan has replaced the worship of a sun god Lugh which was originally worshiped on mountain tops. What is interesting is that all those mountain tops are also associated with Crom Dubh.

In Ireland we have a triple deity called Crom Dubh but also Lugh. He was often portrayed as a triple headed god. Crom Dubh was a god of the underworld, the sun god and the god of fertility. In Serbia this triple god of the underworld, sun and fertility is is Dabog, hromi daba, triglav. daba, triglav.

dublin · Oct 22, 2013

Irish name for Dingle is Corca Dhuibhne.

The Dingle Peninsula is named after the town of Dingle. The peninsula is also commonly called Corca Dhuibhne (Corcu Duibne) even when those referring to it are speaking in English. Corca Dhuibhne,[1] which means "seed or tribe of Duibhne"[2] (an Irish personal name), takes its name from the túath (people, nation) of Corco Dhuibhne who occupied the peninsula in the Middle Ages and who also held a number of territories in the south and east of County Kerry.

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dingle_Peninsula"]Dingle Peninsula - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

In Serbian "kur" means ..... and "kurac" means erect ...... Is it possible that Corca Dhuibhne could mean the ..... of Dubh and that people who live on it are indeed seed of Dubh, Crom Dubh?

Serbian (South Slavic) word Kur, Kurac (pronounced Kur, Kurats) meaning ....., ...., is a mystery for Slavists because it has no matching words in any other Slavic language. But it is one of those words which shows how deep is the connection between the Serbs and the Irish. Irish word "Cur (Cuir)" means "to put". In Serbian, "to put" is "Stav-iti" (to place) but also "Gur-nuti" (to put, push). From here we have the equality of the roots: Cur = Gur = to put, to push or what is put or pushed. "Cur" and "Gur" are actually one and the same word, as both "k" and "g" sounds are produced using the same position of the speech apparatus and are interchangeable. So let's see what Irish words we can find with this "C(g)ur" root and what are the counterparts in Serbian:

Cur (kur) - to saw, to plant. In order to plant or saw, you need to stick put, stick, push something into the ground. In the same way when you are sawing children, you have to push the ..... into ...... which in Serbian is "gurnuti (g)kurac". This is where word kur (.....) comes from. - (sejati, saditi. Da bi se sejalo sadilo nesto mora da se ugura u zemlju. Isto kao kad se prave (seju) deca onda se Gur gurne u Pitcu...)

Cùr (kuur) - to foam. this word is probably newer and describes what happens to (kur, gur) when you have an intercourse. In Serbian, a slang expression meaning "to have an intercourse" is karati (kurati), garati (gurati) where "kara" is another version of "kur". It is interesting that word ..... has the same meaning (foaming) in Serbian. pena - foam, peni se - is foaming. - (peniti se - Ovo je novija rec i predstavlja opis onoga sto se desava sa Curom, Gurom kad se Kara, Kura, Gara, Gura. Interesantno je da i rec ..... znaci isto Peni se...

Cur (kur) - to burry. word kurgan probably comes from this root. kurgan - burial. when you are burring something you are pushing it (ti ga guras) into the ground. kurgan - gur ga - push him under, bury him. - (zakopati (odavde verovatno dolazi rec kurgan). Kad se zakopava onda se zagurava, gura se nesto u zemlju. Curgan, Kurgan je verovatno od Gur ga - gurni ga, zakopaj ga...)

Curamach (kuramak) - throwing out. this word consists of Cur + Amach = put out, push out. Irish word amach has the same meaning as Serbian word "mak" meaning in front, outside. From word mak we have words like:

Po-mak-nuti - to move something
Mak-nuti - move something out
Za-mak, Za-maka-o, Za-mak-nuti be or go behind something which is before you and will prevent others from seeing you. Zamak is one of the worda used to denote fortification walls
U-mak, U-mak-ao escape, to escape, to be so much ahead of your pursuers that they give up the chase

izbacivanje. Ova rec se sastoji od Cur + Amach = Gur + Napolje = Izbaciti. Ova rec Amach znaci na irskom napred, napolje i verovatno ima isti koren kao nase Mak, napred, napolje. Odavde Po-mak-nuti, Mak-nuti (pomeriti napred napolje), a i Za-mak, Za-maka-o, Za-mak-nuti (biti otici iza necega sto je ispred tebe i ne da ti da vidis ili uzmes), U-mak-ao (Neko ko je otisao suvise daleko napres pa ne vredi da ga vise juris)

Cuiras (Curas) (kuras)- to put out, to stick out, to protrude. this word consists of two words: Cuir + as = put out of, from. Kurac is an erect ....., ..... which is sticking out. - (izbaciti napolje, istaknuti, pokazati. Ova rec se sastoji iz reci Cuir + as = Gur + iz, napolje, od sebe ili necega.)

Cursuas (kursuas)- lifting, erection. this word consists of two words: Cur + Suas meaning to put up. First you kur (peinis) goes up, turns into kurac, and then someone climbs on in, "peni se" meaning climb up as well as foam up. - (Podizanje, Erekcija. Ova rec se sastoji od Cur + Suas = Gur + na ..... ..... isto moze da bude od Penise, Penje se, Dize se. Prvo se ..... popenje, pa se onda neko na njega popenje kad mu se kaze: "peni se"...)

Curadh (kurad)- one who is sticking out, who stands out, who is distinguished, hero, brave man, champion. this word consists of two words: Cur + Adh. Adh is word ending which is used in the Irish language to create a noun from a verb which is a description of an action. This word also means luck, in a sense that someone got lucky. This is very old construction because it describes exactly what happened in the oldest times when action did not always have intended consequence or result. One needed to be lucky, otherwise his work would not yield a result. So Curadh is someone who was lucky to survive all dangerous actions and by doing so he became someone who sticks out. In Serbian "biti Kurat" "biti kuronja" means hero, brave man, champion. - (onaj koji se istice, junak, heroj, sampion. Ova rec se sastoji od Cur + Adh = Gur + At. Adh je nastavak koji se stavlja da bi se od radnje napravila imenica. Ali takodje znaci i sreca, u smislu posrecilo mu se. Ovo je jako jako staro jer opisuje tacno ono sto se desavalo u najstarije vreme, kad rad, radnja nije uvek imala zeljeni rezultat. Trebalo je da ti se posreci da bi ti rad postao zarada, za-rad, ono sto se dobija ostaje posle rada... Dakle rec Curadh - Kurath znaci neko ko se istice, ali i neko ko je srecan jer je u to staro vreme trebalo biti srecan da bi se istakao necim a ne natakao na nesto...Ovo je takodje prakticno prevod od "upala mu sekira u med", odnosno posrecilo mu se...

Curata (kurata)- Brave. You need to be brave to become hero, brave man, champion. - (hrabar. Potrebno je biti hrabar da bi postao Kurath...)

Curatacht (kurataht)- Bravery - (hrabrost. Potrebno je biti hrabar da bi postao Kurath..)

Curca (kurka)- Crest particularly on cockerels. Cockerels were always associated with hpalic deities as part of fertility cults. - (kresta. Ova rec se sastoji od Cur + Ca = Kur + gde se nesto nalazi, ka. Ono sto gura, strci,ka, na...)

Curcai, Cuircin (kurkai, kurkin)- A bird with a crest, cockerel. - (ptica sa krestom, petao.

Cùr (kuur) - To scold, to rebuke. In Serbian we have the same expression for to cu*k and to scold, to rebuke which is "karati" literally hitting with a "d*ck". Maybe here ..... is seen as a stick. maybe originally any scolding, rebuking involved hitting with a stick. - (Karati, prekoriti, grditi. Mozda od garati, izmlatiti garom motkom??? U juznoj srbiji se kaze karati za terati, prekarati, prekardasiti za preterati. A tera se motkom, neki put govnjivom...)

This is an incredible word cluster which will become very important once we arrive to pre Hellenic Greece, where we will arrive following our people of Crom Dubh.

Who were these people who lived on Corca Dhuibhne? This is what wiki says about them:

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corcu_Duibne"]Corcu Duibne - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

The Corcu Duibne was a notable kingdom in prehistoric and medieval County Kerry, Ireland which included the Dingle Peninsula, the Iveragh Peninsula and connecting lands. The tribe belonged to the Érainn and claimed descent from the legendary Conaire Mór, possibly making them distant cousins of such far off kingdoms as Dál Riata in Ulster and Scotland, as well as the closer Múscraige and Corcu Baiscind.[1] All the tribes belonged to the Síl Conairi of legend and ultimately traced their descent from the Clanna Dedad.

So Corcu Duibne, worshipped Crom Dubh, lived on Dubh's ....., were the sead of Dubh and were cousins of Dál Riata.

Corcu Duibne were noted creators of ogham inscriptions, with over one third of all Irish inscriptions found in their region,[3] the existence of the Corcu Duibne is attested as early as the 5th century.[4]

The etymology of the word ogam or ogham remains unclear and has no meaning in Gaelic.

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogham"]Ogham - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

But ogam has clear etymology in Serbian. "Kam, Kamen" means stone in Serbian. "o" can among other things mean on, on something. "o kam" means on stone. So Ogam, Okam means on stone, writing on stones. What is interesting is that most ogam inscription represent names of people and their ancestors. Ogam stones are clearly either grave marks or tribute marks, or curse marks. In Serbian word for "read" is "čitaj" pronounced cheetay. This is a compound word composed from "čij + taj" pronounced cheeytay meaning "who(se) is this". whose stone is this? whose mark is this? finding out who this is was the point of reading.

Ogam inscriptions tell us Corcu Duibne claimed descent from a female ancestor DOVINIA.

Or maybe from crom dubh.

The Iron Age mountaintop fortress Caherconree, preserving the name of the legendary Cú Roí, a cousin of Conaire Mór, is found on the Dingle Peninsula, the name of which in Modern Irish is Corca Dhuibhne.

So we are back with our Wolf king Cu Roi. Who is this wolf king, "a warrior with superhuman abilities and a master of disguise possessed of magical powers"? The king of the land where they write "o kam" and worship Crom Dubh? The king who chooses Cú Chulainn as his champion, refuses to fight him and then gets killed by him only to be revenged by his son called Lugaid mac Con Roí (lugh the son of the wolf king)?

Caherconree is a stone ringfort that sits two-thirds of the way up its southwestern shoulder, overlooking the mountain road called Bóthar na gCloch ("road of the stones").[1] The ringfort is surrounded on three sides by steep cliffs. In Irish mythology this is the fort of Cú Roí mac Dáire, who was able to make it spin around at night to stop any attackers from finding the entrance.[1] In the story of Aided Con Roí, a king's daughter called Bláthnat is kidnapped and taken to the fort by Cú Roí. She is rescued by her lover, Cú Chulainn.[1] Bláthnat signals to Cú Chulainn that the time is right to attack by pouring milk in a stream. This stream is now called the Finglas (from an Fhionnghlaise meaning "the white stream")[1] and its source is close to the remains of the ringfort.
There is a rock feature on the mountain called Fin MacCool's Chair,[3] which is named after the mythical figure Fionn mac Cumhaill.

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caherconree"]Caherconree - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

Bláthnat ("Little flower"),[1] sometimes Bláthíne,[2] is a character in early Irish literature, a king's daughter, wife of the warrior Cú Roí and the lover of his rival Cú Chulainn.

Her father is either Mend[3] of Inis Fer Falga (identified as the Isle of Man), Iuchna,[4] Conchobar mac Nessa,[5] or Midir, the fairy king of Brí Léith (located in County Westmeath).
Her father's kingdom was invaded by warriors of the Red Branch of Ulster, led by Cú Roí and Cú Chulainn. The raid led to her capture, along with several cattle and a magic cauldron. Despite her being in love with Cú Chulainn, she was chosen by Cú Roí as his personal spoil and she therefore married him, leading to a dispute between the two warriors. This ended with Cú Chulainn being shaved and humiliated by Cú Roí.[6]
Later, she betrayed her husband to his enemies, pouring milk into the River Finglas (Finnglas) as a signal that he was at home. Subsequent to this action, Cú Roí was slain by Cú Chulainn. In revenge, Cú Roí's poet Ferchertne, threw both himself and Blathnát from a cliff.
Bláthnat's floral name and the story of her conspiracy have been compared to those of Blodeuwedd in the Fourth Branch of the Mabinogi, Math Uab Mathonwy.[7]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bláthnat

Blodeuwedd or Blodeuedd, (Middle Welsh composite name from blodeu 'flowers, blossoms' + gwedd 'face, aspect, appearance': "flower face"), is the wife of Lleu Llaw Gyffes in Welsh mythology, made from the flowers of broom, meadowsweet and the oak by the magicians Math and Gwydion, and is a central figure in the fourth branch of the Mabinogi.

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blodeuwedd"]Blodeuwedd - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

Lleu Llaw Gyffes (Welsh pronunciation: [ˈɬəɨ ˈɬau ˈɡəfes], sometimes misspelled Llew Llaw Gyffes) is a hero of Welsh mythology. He appears most prominently in the Fourth Branch of the Mabinogi, the tale of Math fab Mathonwy, which tells the tale of his birth, his marriage, his death, his resurrection and his accession to the throne of Gwynedd. He is a warrior and magician, invariably associated with his uncle Gwydion.
He is widely understood to be the Welsh equivalent of the Irish Lugh and the Gaulish Lugus. It has been suggested that Lleu, like Pryderi, is related to the divine son figure of Mabon ap Modron.[1]

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lleu_Llaw_Gyffes"]Lleu Llaw Gyffes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

So if Bláthnat is Blodeuwedd then Cu Roi, the wolf king is Lleu Llaw Gyffes or Lugh or Crom Dubh.

The 8th-century text known as The Expulsion of the Déisi attributes to the Corcu Duibne an eponymous founder, Corc Duibne, a scion of the branch of the Érainn royal line called the Síl Conairi, after Conaire Mór. In particular, the later "B version" of the text includes a lengthy episode describing Corc's birth and childhood deeds. Corc and his twin brother Cormac are born of incest to Coirpre Músc (a quo Múscraige) and Duihind, children of Conaire Cóem, a descendant of Conaire Mór. Their conception causes the crops to fail, and the people determine to immolate them to remove their curse. However, a druid steps in and offers to take Corc to an offshore island so that the abomination is out of Ireland. Reciting a poem predicting great things for Corc's descendants, the druid and his wife Boí take the boy to the remote island of Inis Boí. Every morning for the next year, Boí performs a purification ritual in which she gives Corc an ablution while he is seated on the back of an otherworldly white cow with red ears. Finally one morning Corc's curse leaves him and enters the cow, who jumps into the ocean and turns to stone, becoming the rock of Bó Boí. Boí takes Corc to his grandmother, Sárait, daughter of Conn Cétchathach, and eventually convinces her to take him back.[9]

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corcu_Duibne"]Corcu Duibne - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

This is almost exact copy of an ancient Hittite ritual for warding off plagues and famines. Originally the king was burnt or in some other way sacrificed because the king was seen as being responsible for both good and bad fortune of the country. In later years, instead of sacrificing the king, a double would be chosen from a foreign slaves to represent the king. He would be dressed and adorned like a king and then proclaim the king. An animal, usually bull or cow was used then as a sacrificial animal which the false king would sacrifice to propitiate the gods. The false king would then be expelled from the country back to his own country in order to bring the bad luck and god's wrath with him. How did this ritual arrive in Ireland? Remember all the connections between the Irish, the Serbs and the Hittites we have already found and which all point towards bregians, frigians, frisians, brigantes?

When he is older Corc is sent to serve as hostage in the court of Cormac mac Airt, King of Tara. There he is fostered by Óengus Gaíbúaibthech, a leader of the Déisi. When Óengus and his people are expelled from Tara over a bloody dispute with the king's son, Corc absconds from hostageship and joins his foster-father, fighting beside him in many battles. Eventually the Déisi wander to the southern coast, and come to the island where Corc was reared. He tries to convince them to settle there, but they elect to move farther north. Corc remains, and founds his dynasty.[10]

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corcu_Duibne"]Corcu Duibne - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

Who are the Déisi?

The Déisi were a class of peoples in ancient and medieval Ireland. The term is Old Irish, and derives from the word déis, meaning "vassal" or "subject"; in its original sense, it designated groups who were vassals or rent-payers to a landowner.[1] Later, it became a proper name for certain septs and their own subjects throughout Ireland.[2] The various peoples listed under the heading déis shared the same status in Gaelic Ireland, and had little or no actual kinship, though they were often thought of as genetically related.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Déisi

So Déisi were dispersed subdued people who "were often thought of as genetically related"?!

Were Déisi the original inhabitants of Ireland, the non Gaels who fell into vassal state after Ireland was conquered by the Gaels? Was Corc Duibne, the seed of dubh, one of the Déisi and this is why he is fostered by Óengus Gaíbúaibthech, a leader of the Déisi? Is this why there is such overlap between the land of Déisi and the land of Laigin both in Ireland and in Wales?

dublin · Oct 22, 2013

These next two Serbian words will help us shed more light on Crom Dubh?

First word is Kurjak (pronounced Kuryak) - big, terrible wolf.

The main word used for wolf in Serbian is "vuk" or "vlk". These words come from "voulk" or "vouluk", the same word from which the Irish work " faolchú" comes from, and is based on onomatopoeic sound of wolf howling.

The word "kurjak" however doesn't have clear etymology. The accepted one is that it comes from "kur + jak" = "..... + strong". This etymology connects virility with bloodthirstiness in a sense that viral man fu*ks what ever he can catch, in the same way bloodthirsty wolf kills what ever it can catch. This clearly connects death and procreation. Serbian mythological ancestor is "Hromi Daba", "hromi vuk", crooked wolf. Some people explain this crookedness as a description of an angle of an erect ...... Hromi daba, Dabog is indeed at the same time the god of the underworld, the dead and the god of fertility.

Is it possible that Cu Roi or Cu Ri, the wolf king is Hromi daba, crooked wolf, Crom Dubh?
Is Kurjak Ku ri jak = Cu ri ach?

Are the erect stones connected with Crom Dubh symbols of the erect .....? Here is an interesting description of a Killycluggin stone believed to be representation of Crom Cruach, the name of the fertility face of Crom Dubh. When excavated and placed upright on its flat base, it was found to lean obliquely to the left from the vertical, perhaps explaining the name Crom, "crooked". :

A decorated stone which has been interpreted by some as the cult image of Crom Cruach was found at Killycluggin, County Cavan, in 1921 (Site number 93, Killycluggin townland, “Archaeological Inventory of County Cavan”, Patrick O’Donovan, 1995, p. 19). O'Kelly, however, refers to this image as Crom Dubh.[5] Roughly dome-shaped and covered in Iron Age La Tène designs, it was discovered broken in several pieces and partly buried close to a Bronze Age stone circle, inside which it probably once stood.[6] The site has several associations with St. Patrick. Nearby is Tobar Padraig (St. Patrick's Well), and Kilnavert Church, which is said to have been founded by the saint. Kilnavert was originally called Fossa Slécht or Rath Slécht, from which the wider Magh Slécht area was named.
Although now much damaged, the stone can be reconstructed from the different surviving pieces. At the base of the stone there were four rectangular adjoining panels measuring 90 cm each in width giving a circumference of 3m 60 cm when it was first carved. The height of each panel was about 75 cm. When excavated and placed upright on its flat base, it was found to lean obliquely to the left from the vertical, perhaps explaining the name Crom, "bent, crooked". The Killycluggin Stone, as it is known, is now in the Cavan County Museum, while a replica stands near the road about 300 metres from the original site.

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crom_Cruach]Crom Cruach - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

Second word is Kura, Kurava, Kurva - .....

Does the name of the Crom Dubh's consort Corra, actually mean ..... and is miss pronunciation of Kurva, Korva, kora?

St Brendan's mother's name was Cara. Here is what Wiktionary says about it:

From Old Irish cara (“friend, relation”) (compare Scottish Gaelic caraid, Manx carrey), from Proto-Celtic *karant- (“friend”), from Proto-Indo-European *ka- (“to like, desire”) (compare Latin cārus, English charity, .....).

cara - Wiktionary

cārus m (feminine cāra, neuter cārum); first/second declension - dear, beloved
Etymology - Proto-Indo-European *kāro- (English .....), akin to Sanskrit (kāma, “love”).

carus - Wiktionary

kurva f - (vulgar) ..... (prostitute)
From Proto-Slavic *kury

kurva - Wiktionary

From Proto-Indo-European *kowr-. Cognate with Latin caurio.

Appendix

roto-Slavic/kury - Wiktionary

So basically Cara comes from the same root which gave us word ...... The ultimate root is given as Proto-Indo-European "kowr" but with no meaning. But we know the meaning of "kowr" and we know that it is actually "kur, gur" meaning to stick in, what is stuck in during sawing seed or sperm. And we know that "Proto-Indo-Europeans" who gave us this root were old Serbs and Irish. So the root is "kur" meaning ...... So cara comes from cora which comes from cura which means ....., the desired one and ultimately the fuc*ed one, the one we have stuck our kur into.

Kara is another slang word for ..... in Serbian. Karati means to fu*k.

If Hromi Daba, Crom Dubh was at the same time the male deity of death and procreation, was Corra, Cara, Cura also female deity of both death and procreation? I believe that she was and i will talk about it soon.

aunia · Oct 27, 2013

I am writing a small celtic book and I am getting confused in regard to what country was
Mount Imeon in Scythian?
Also who were the Umor of Bulgaria?
Were the Tuatha De denann part of the partheleon?
What /who were the Celtic tribe Scordisci?
Are the Bulgarians a true pre celtic Irish society in the Britsh Isles?
I think I am having trouble wrapping all this around in my head. I never dreamed my work would take me to here/
Can you help me make sense of it?
Thanks
Aunia

aunia · Oct 27, 2013

Who was the Roman officer in charge of the invasion of Anglesey? Also the great slaughter that took place here who was the Roman Emeror at the time? Was it Tiberius the grandfather of Caligula?

Lucius Vorenus · Oct 28, 2013

E svašta.

Glowin · Oct 28, 2013

Wow, very interesting read! I found put a lot! I really hope you continue your research. You have 5 stars from me

dublin · Nov 1, 2013

Thank you all who are reading this thread. Thank you Glowin for your support. And thank you Aunia for making me laugh.

There were many migrations into Ireland in many different times. Some of them were from the Balkans some of them were from the south Baltic. All these people left their mark in the Irish language. This is why it is so difficult to determine who brought what.

Some people are pointing to the fact that the people who moved from modern day Serbia to Ireland would have been pre-Slavic and would have nothing to do with today's Serbs who are Slavic.

Vinca people and bregians (phrigians) were pre Slavic. However they were the ancestors of both Serbians and Irish and have left their mark in our genes and our culture and language.

Some people are saying that I should emphasize more that the "Serbs" that I believe came to Ireland vere very different from the Serbs of today, more of an Illyrian stock perhaps than Slavic? But Ilirians, Thrakians through time and through mixing with other people morphed into Slavs. These are the same people. In diplomatic and historic records of many European countries up to 19th century Slavs from the Balkan were called Illyrians. The Illyrian cultural traits continue to be found in Dinaric alps among the Slavic population. What i am trying to say is that there was no population, cultural and linguistic replacement in the Balkans. There was an evolution. This cultural evolution in the Balkans preserved the old cultural and linguistic layers going probably all the way back to Vinca.

Some people are also saying that Serbian is a Slavic language, so the language these pre-Slavs would have brought to Ireland would have been very different, perhaps completely unrelated to the language spoken in Serbia today.

However the language spoken in Serbia today is descendant of the old Balkan languages. It is (with other South Slavic languages) the oldest Slavic language, the ancestor language of the Slavs. It has also preserved a lot of features and vocabulary that does not exist in any other Slavic language but exists in Irish. How do we explain this? I believe that these features and vocabulary come from the old Balkan languages. The same goes for cultural traits like for instance Crom Dubh. He exists only in Ireland (and Scotland) and Serbia. And this is not the only cultural similarity between the Irish and the Serbs. There are actually so many of them that we can't ignore them. If it were couple of words, or place names we could say that they are coincidences. But if you read through this thread you will see that we are talking about hundreds of words, grammatical constructs, place names, mythological themes, customs.... There is no way that they could be a coincidence. How did they get to exist? Some through Vinca migrations. Some through early Indo Europan (Vucedol culture) migrations. Some through Bregian (Hittite) migrations. Some through "Celtic" central European cultural links. Some through South Baltic Slavic migrations to Ireland during early medieval Anglo Saxon and Viking migrations. If you have any better explanation for all the cultural and linguistic links that i have presented on this thread so far, please put it forward here. For instance how to explain the cluster linked to Cur Gur word group? It does not exist in any other European language except Irish and South Slavic languages. And add to that that slang word for ..... in Serbian is "budza" and in Irish is "bud, bod"?

Bud, Bod is an old Irish, old Celtic word for ...... Bud meaning ..... was an Irish slang word brought to America where became a root for word Buddy meaning friend.

Any Irish dictionary will give you this:

bod - .....(n m1)

bodach - a strong, lusty youth

Buddy is another Irish Gaelic word, which comes from the Irish expression, a vuddy, or a bhodaigh, which means something like "pal." The root of the word bhodaigh is strangely, bod, which is the Irish word for ....., and pronounced like bud.

Dirty Irish Gaelic words litter New York City slang | The Keane Edge | IrishCentral

Dictionary of early Irish:

..... - bot

http://www.wales.ac.uk/Resources/Documents/Research/CelticLanguages/EnglishProtoCelticWordlist.pdf

Proto Celtic dictionary:

..... *butto- (?) / *bosdo- (?)
..... *muto- (?)

http://www.wales.ac.uk/Resources/Documents/Research/CelticLanguages/EnglishProtoCelticWordlist.pdf

By the way here is another word for ..... that is the same in "Celtic" and Serbian: muto. In Serbian word is mudo and means di*k. According to the linguists, the words for genitals are some of the oldest and most conservative words. They point to a very old link between Serbs and "Celts" or Irish.

Here is what other people say about South Slavs (including Serbians) of the Balkans as possible carriers of the ancient cultural and linguistic characteristics:

High levels of Paleolithic Y-chromosome lineages characterize Serbia.

Regueiro M, Rivera L, Damnjanovic T, Lukovic L, Milasin J, Herrera RJ.

Abstract

Whether present-day European genetic variation and its distribution patterns can be attributed primarily to the initial peopling of Europe by anatomically modern humans during the Paleolithic, or to latter Near Eastern Neolithic input is still the subject of debate. Southeastern Europe has been a crossroads for several cultures since Paleolithic times and the Balkans, specifically, would have been part of the route used by Neolithic farmers to enter Europe. Given its geographic location in the heart of the Balkan Peninsula at the intersection of Central and Southeastern Europe, Serbia represents a key geographical location that may provide insight to elucidate the interactions between indigenous Paleolithic people and agricultural colonists from the Fertile Crescent. In this study, we examine, for the first time, the Y-chromosome constitution of the general Serbian population. A total of 103 individuals were sampled and their DNA analyzed for 104 Y-chromosome bi-allelic markers and 17 associated STR loci. Our results indicate that approximately 58% of Serbian Y-chromosomes (I1-M253, I2a-P37.2, R1a1a-M198) belong to lineages believed to be pre-Neolithic. On the other hand, the signature of putative Near Eastern Neolithic lineages, including E1b1b1a1-M78, G2a-P15, J1-M267 and J2-M172 and R1b1a2-M269 accounts for 39% of the Y-chromosome. Furthermore, an examination of the distribution of Y-chromosome filiations in Europe indicates extreme levels of Paleolithic lineages in a region encompassing Serbia, Bosnia-Herzegovina and Croatia, possibly the result of Neolithic migrations encroaching on Paleolithic populations against the Adriatic Sea.

High levels of Paleolithic Y-chromosome lineages characterize Serbia

What this means is that population of the Balkans consists of people who lived there since paleolithic times and all the migrants who went through Balkans since that time. And majority of the people actually belongs to the oldest European populations, still living in the same place after all these millenniums. They definitely preserved some of the old cultural and linguistic characteristics. But to extract them from all the later overlaying cultural and linguistic layers, you have to compare Balkan cultures with equally old European cultures like the Irish culture. I believe, and maybe i am wrong, that the intersections will give us old European culture.

Also have a look at this:

"The Ram and the Bull, a forgotten belief: Signs of the Vinča and Cucuteni"

I do not agree with all the conclusions from this work, but it is a very good study of ancient symbols and it shows that there is a definite Vincan cultural influence in Ireland.

Go to page 45 for vinca signs in Britain and Ireland.

Here are some examples: 1. vinca spirals, 2. Vinča tablet from Potporanj – Kremenjak, Late Neolithic, 3. A selection of British passage-tomb motifs, 4. The entrance stone Newgrange

Here is the link to the document.

The Bull and the Ram, a forgotten belief. Signs of the Vinca and Cucuteni in Europe and the Aegean

The swirling pattern and chevron are vinca invention and we can trace the spread of the vinca symbolism from the Balkan to all the other parts of Europe, middle east, north Afrika, Mesopotamia, and further east. They are related. They are being spread by proselytizing vincans who one day, in the mid fourth millennium bc, looked at their metal weapons, and said: "hey, guys, you know what, we can actually take over the world?". And they did. It took over a thousand years for them, or their descendants to reach Ireland, but when they did they built almost exact replica of tablet from Potporanj in Newgrange. What else did they bring with them i am trying to find out in this study.

Also do you remember Opanak, the old European shoe still preserved as a traditional folk footwear in Serbia whose name can only be explained through Irish?

http://historum.com/european-histor...irish-culture-4.html#post1461924?postcount=34

Here is the oldest known depiction from Vučedol culture. The identical ones are still worn in the same area of the Balkan today 5000 years later:

Genetic and cultural continuity exists int the Balkans since paleolithic times. I believe that language continuity exists as well.

Some people still remain skeptical as to the extent of this Balkan/Germanic/Baltic connection that i talk about. They are saying that sure there was some connection, but what is the extent of it is difficult to discern. And that is true. But that there was almost a direct link between Balkan and Ireland via South Baltic for many millennia, is obvious from the archaeological finds. Cultural traits would first appear in the Balkans, then move up through central Europe to South Baltic and then they would appear in British isles. South Baltic was the main sea exit for Central European cultures from most ancient times. Between central Europe and Atlantic coast lay huge forests which were until late medieval times impenetrable. It was much easier to travel between central Europe and the British isles via south Baltic and then along the Atlantic coast.

The connection between Balkan and Baltic could for instance be Serbian, Sirbian, Sorbian people who live along the Carpatian mountains From Balkan to Baltic. They still live there and share language and customs. How long have they been living there i don't know, but considering that central Europe (Balkan - Baltic) is the birth place of I haplogroup, they could have been living there since at least late neolithic.

The Serbian-Germanic-Irish connection is something that popped out quite unexpectedly. But more and more i look at particularly the Irish language and culture, the more and more i find Germanic influences.

For instance holy kings who were venerated as bringers of the good times of plenty and blamed for the bad times of famine and pestilence, is a well attested Germanic custom. The killing of the holy kings as a sacrifice for the return of the good times is also well attested in Germanic lands well in the historical times. We find the same custom in Ireland. Are there any other mentions of this king sacrifices anywhere else in "Celtic" lands except in Ireland? And if not, how did this Germanic custom end up in Ireland? I have been writing a lot about potential Slavic and Germanic presence which somehow failed to be recorded in Irish Annals. Is this another proof that a lot of what we think as being "Celtic" in Ireland is in fact Germanic? But this custom of sacrificing kings for prosperity originated in the Balkans in Lepenski vir culture, 7000 bc. They sacrificed kings every year. Human sacrifices continued to bi practiced in the Balkan - Baltic region among Western Slavs well into medieval time.

dublin · Nov 1, 2013

Another pitfall in comparing languages is that people sometimes think that because two words are spelt similarly they must be linked, the problem here is that spelling is a relatively recent invention that wasn't around at the times we're talking about, it's all about the actual pronunciation of the word and if they're similar.

I am aware of this. I have in depth knowledge of South Slavic languages and dialects. Also very good knowledge of several other Slavic languages. My knowledge of Irish is ok and is getting better every day. I am not really interested in modern Irish, so i am more concentrated on the the old stuff. I also have lots of Irish people that i can consult on dialectic issues regarding Irish language pronunciation. What i am finding though, is that once you start digging into the Irish language things get pretty murky and muddy and i am a lot of times on my own trying to figure out why some things are the way they are.

For instance take the word "rath". There are actually two old Irish words today spelled as "rath"

ráth m - earthen rampart, ring-fort

rath - granting, grace, gift, success

When you look at O Donaill's dictionary, you can find two pages worth of words derived from the second "rath" but only one single line for the first "rath". When we look at the pronunciation of the word we find this:

Pronunciation note: “th” is pronounced “h” in Modern Irish, but in Old Irish it was pronounced like the “th” in “thing”.

Focal an Lae #107

We have hundreds of place names with "rath" in it (for instance Ráth Cruachan) and all of them are pronounced as rath (raθ) not as rah.

In Serbian we have word rat meaning war. Was rath originally rat, which became rath: place where you go during war times, fort? Is there any possible root for rath in Gaelic? Rat has no root that i know in Serbian. Maybe Serbian Rat (war) came from Irish Rath (the time of forts and fighting) who knows. What i wanted to Illustrate is that you can not actually depend on modern Irish pronunciation either.

I mentioned old shoes representation from Vučedol culture. Numerous were found of different types of Opanak. The fact that these shoe depictions were made points to religious significance of these shoes for the people of Vučedol culture. The same shoes, opanak, still have retained some cult status among the Balkan Slavs.

Opanak is shaped like a boat and represents a boat that takes you over land. They are like boats connected with travels and search for knowledge and wisdom. They are often magical and can cover huge distances and carry its owner at huge speeds. Some of them can even allow you to cross any water without getting wet.

They are through folk beliefs linked to gaining wisdom through experience. Someone's experience is measured by number of opanaks he had worn out. Opanaks are also sign and symbol of power and authority. Who ever puts his opanak first rules. Restringing opanak is a cure against nightmares so opanak is a magical tool as well. Opanak is also simbol of male power. In serbian folk poetry only women are barefoot, men never unless they are presented as completely fallen and broken. Opanak and even more boot is also very often connected with gold, money, treasure booty . Treasure is often found in boots symbolizing link between travel, experience, wisdom and fortune. Bribe money in Serbian folk songs and stories is always given in shoes or boots.

In Serbia St Sava, patron saint of Serbia, took all attributes of god Dabog, Hromi Daba. In the same way St Patrick, patron saint of Ireland, took all attributes of Crom Dubh. St Sava traveled a lot while fighting Dabog and preaching. His opponents often stole his shoes in an attempt to steal his wisdom. St Sava is patron of cobblers and shoe makers, which means that the teacher and shoe maker are connected. Opanak is sown on the knee. Knee is also place where kids are placed when they are being taught by their fathers. In Serbian language, knowledge is passed "from knee to knee" meaning "from generation to generation".

The only place where you are not allowed to enter in Opanak is a holy place. In Serbian tradition home is the most holy place, the ancestral temple, and this is why people take their shoes off when they enter someone's home. In christian tradition, shoe as a symbol of knowledge and authority was replaced with hat. This is why the only person wearing a hat in church is the priest, the teacher and leader.

To take your shoes off means to say everything, to revile everything, to be completely truthful.

This was a partial translation of the below article:

Obu?a | EXODUS ? ?UDO

Now have a look at this interesting unexplained thing about Lugus (Lugh):

[Scholars have long noted the interesting parallel between Lugus being worshiped by shoemakers in Spain and his Welsh counterpart Lleu being represented as a shoemaker in the 4th branch of the Mabinogion[11][12]]

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lugus]Lugus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

The emphasis on shoemaking in both the Third and Fourth Branches, taken together with the dedication to the Lugoues by the Spanish shoemakers' guild, suggests that this was an ancient and important attribute of Celtic "Mercury". It may, of course, have been no more than a symbol of craftsmanship in general, but some recent finds in Romano-Celtic cemeteries imply a more specific association of this image with the god. In British graves of the 3rd and 4th centuries, together with other paraphernalia related to the cult of Lugus, one typically finds a pair of hobnailed boots, obviously intended for the use of the dead in the Otherworld.30 "Mercury", as the archetypal mover between states, is the patron of all roads and travelling, but particularly of the ultimate journey between the realms of life and death. Shoes are a basic need of the traveller, in this world and the next, so Lugus, in his knowledge of all crafts, is the specific provider of this necessity.)

Lugus: The Many-Gifted Lord

I believe that Serbian tradition sheds some new light on this "emphasis on shoemaking" of the "Celtic" Lugus, Lugh.

I also believe that South Slavic traditional shoe "opanak" points to something very very important.

We find opanak for the first time in Vučedol culture. The same type of shoes are still used in the Balkans. The word "opanak" has no etymology in Slavic languages but it has clear etymology in Gaelic. Does this point to Vucedol culture being Gaelic? Or were their neighbors to the east in the Carpatian mountains Gaelic? I always suspected that Serbs and Irish lived together in the Balkans in the neolithic, i just couldn't figure out who could be the carrier of the Gaelic language and who could be the carrier of the Serbian language. If I was an Irish historian I would start looking very carefully at Vučedol culture. Particularly because it is believed that it could have been the ancestor culture of the "Celtic" Volcae and Later "Slavic" Volci from south Baltic.

The Vučedol culture (Croatian: Vučedolska kultura) flourished between 3000 and 2200 BC[1] (the Eneolithic period of earliest copper-smithing), centered in Syrmia and eastern Slavonia on the right bank of the Danube river, but possibly spreading throughout the Pannonian plain and western Balkans and southward. It was thus contemporary with the Sumer period in Mesopotamia, the Early Dynastic period in Egypt and the earliest settlements of Troy (Troy I and II). Some authors regard it as an Indo-European culture.[2]

Following the Baden culture, another wave of perhaps Indo-European speakers came to the banks of the Danube. One of the major places they occupied is present-day Vučedol ("Wolf's Valley"), a location six kilometers downstream from the town of Vukovar, Croatia. It is estimated that the site had once been home to about 3,000 inhabitants, making it one of the largest and most important European centers of its time.Coordinates: 45°21′N 19°00′E According to Bogdan Brukner,[3] proto-Illyrians descended from this wave of Indo-European settlers.
The early stages of the culture occupied locations not far from mountain ranges, where copper deposits were located, because of their main invention: making tools from arsenical copper in series reusing double, two-part moulds.

Vu?edol culture - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The main Vucedol culture site was in Vucedol (meaning wolf valley in South Slavic languages) which lies on river Vuka (meaning wolf river in South Slavic languages). What is interesting is that the old name of this river was "Volcos". This indicates that "Volcos" actually means "wolf(s)" river.

Vuka is a river in eastern Croatia, a right tributary of the Danube river. At 112 kilometres (70 mi) it is the 11th longest river in Croatia and it has a drainage area of 644 square kilometres (249 sq mi).[1] The river is located in Vukovar-Syrmia County, in Slavonia region. It empties into the Danube at the town of Vukovar, which got its name from the river.
Ancient name of Pannonian Illyrians for Vuka was Volcos.

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volcos]Vuka (river) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

The Volcae (Latin pronunciation: [ˈwɔlkaj]) were a tribal confederation constituted before the raid of combined Gauls that invaded Macedon c. 270 BC and defeated the assembled Greeks at the Battle of Thermopylae in 279 BC. Though a modern view of Celtic tribal configurations has to be pieced together from mentions in Greek and Latin sources, for archaeology determines no tribal identities purely through material culture of the late La Tène Celts, tribes called Volcae were to be found simultaneously in southern France, Moravia, the Ebro River valley, and Galatia in Asia Minor (Anatolia).

Traditional etymologies have attributed Volcae to a word akin to Welsh golchi 'to wash' and Irish folc 'to bathe' (Proto-Celtic *wolkiō), making this tribe the 'river people' after a rough semantic adjustment. A more likely scenario is that this or a cognate in Pannonian Illyrian was used to name the river Volcos, from which the Volcae took their name.[citation needed] C. W. von Glück[18] derived the name from a word related to Old Irish folg 'agile, energetic'.[19]
Most Celticists today seem to agree that the tribal name Uolcae is related to Welsh gwalch 'hawk', akin to Latin falco 'hawk', (and they compare the Gaulish personal name Catuuolcus to Welsh cadwalch 'hero', literally 'battle-hawk'), though some prefer to translate Gaulish *uolco- as 'wolf' and, by semantic extension, 'errant warrior'.[20] There seems to be indication that their name is related to their breed of war greyhounds since before the 600 BC when the Tectosages and Tolistobogii Celts sacked Delphi. Survivors left accounts of the fierce Celts and the huge dogs who fought with them and at their side. They were described by Julius Caesar in his war reports, The Gallic Wars.

boards.ie - View Single Post - Old Europe (Vinca) language and culture in early layers of Serbian and Irish culture

When you manage to wade through the etymological gibberish saying that the fierce Volcae had the name which meant "to wash" , you come to wolf river and Slavic volk (wolf), Irish faolchú (wolf )and Gaulish uolco (wolf) and the reports of terrifying war hounds that they used in Battle. Both the Irish and Serbians have tradition of war dogs, wolf hounds. We know that Volcae came from Central Europe and that they were in the Balkans living peacefully way before their invasion of Greece as latest archaeological data shows us:

This could explain a lot of Gaelic toponims and hidronims in the Balkans. But how do we explain things like this:

Mag Muirthemne [Murtemne] – Mag Muirthemne “in Brega” or “in Conaille” was one of 12 plains cleared in Nemed’s time. “Mag Muirthemne is the maritime plain of Co. Louth.” Fodbgen, king of the Fir Bolg, was slain on Mag Muirthemne. The plain, Mag Muirthemne, was named for Muirthemne son of Breogan one of the chieftains of the Milesians. Three battles were fought here between Conmáel son of Éber and the descendants of Érimón. The river Nith Nemandach burst over the land of Mag Muirthemne during the reign of Rothechtaid, the 15th king of Ireland. Óengus king of Conaille of Muirthemne died in
the battle of Mag Sered. Cobthach, son of Ugoine Mór, was granted as his share of Ireland “Muirthemne,rich in mead.” (source: Macalister, LGE, Vol. 3, p. 123, 135, 173, 191; Vol. 4, p. 9, 19, 33, 45, 51, 78; Vol.
5, p. 23, 119, 201, 231, 393, 467)

http://www.ucc.ie/celt/LGLM.pdf

And then we have this:

Mag Muirthemne, whence the name? Not hard to say. The sea covered it thirty years after the Flood, and hence it is called Muirthemne, that is, ‘darkness of the sea’, or ‘it is under the sea's roof’. Or there was a magic sea over it, and an octopus therein, having a property of suction. It would suck in a man in armour till he lay at the bottom of its treasure-bag. The Dagda came with his 'mace of wrath' in his hand, and plunged it down upon the octopus, and chanted these words: ‘Turn thy hollow head! Turn thy ravening body! Turn thy resorbent forehead! Avaunt! Begone!’ Then the magic sea retired with the octopus; and hence, may be, the place was called Mag Muirthemne.

Part 99 of The Metrical Dindshenchas

Here Dagda, like Thor or Perun uses Thunder Hammer or Axe to destroy the Serpant of the Underwarld and water (Veles) which was here depicted as Octopus. But the most interesting thing is the explanation for the name: "Muirthemne means darkness of the sea".

In Serbian word "Tamno" or "Tavno" or "Temno" means dark. More means Sea. So Muirthemne = Muir themne = More Tamno = Sea dark = darkness of the sea. Here we can also see how people who did not know how to use these foreign words changed the ending of "tamno" into "tamne" to match the ending of "more". Maybe i am wrong but i could not find word in Irish that sounds like Tamno Temno which means dark.

Who and when brought this name to Ireland? The story obviously talks about one of the catastrophic weather events probably the one that occurred in mid 3rd millennium BC when it rained for years and a lot of Ireland was flooded. Could the name be that old?

You can see now how difficult it is to figure out who did what to who and when. But Serbs and Irish definitely had lots of fun together.

dublin · Nov 1, 2013

Do you remember the discussion about ring forts and Slavic in Viking armies?

http://historum.com/european-histor...irish-culture-8.html#post1503554?postcount=76

I just thought of something:

If Harald was using Slavic army in Scandinavia, then these Slavic solders built for themselves Slavic ring forts. Mystery solved. There are no "viking ringforts" in the Baltic, just Slavic ringforts.

While quiet prevailed throughout the interior, Harold Bluetooth turned his energies to foreign enterprises. He came to the help of Richard the Fearless of Normandy in 945 and 963...

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harald_Bluetooth]Harald Bluetooth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

Motte-and-bailey castle

A motte-and-bailey castle is a fortification with a wooden or stone keep situated on a raised earthwork called a motte, accompanied by an enclosed courtyard, or bailey, surrounded by a protective ditch and palisade. Relatively easy to build with unskilled, often forced labour, but still militarily formidable, these castles were built across northern Europe from the 10th century onwards, spreading from Normandy and Anjou in France, into the Holy Roman Empire in the 11th century.

Motte-and-bailey castle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So again Harald Bluetooth's Slavic army arrives in Normandy and soon afterwards gards and gords start appearing in north western Europe under the name Motte-and-bailey castle. There were no fortifications of this type there before.

And here is a question worth million pounds: Where did Fitz in Norman surnames come from?

Fitz is a prefix in patronymic surnames of Anglo-Norman origin. This usage derives from the Norman fiz / filz, pronunciation: /fits/ (cognate with French fils < Latin filius), meaning "son of". In noble families, this was preposed to the name of the father (e.g. Fitz Gilbert, meaning "son of Gilbert"), mirroring the Scandinavian tradition of adding -son after (usually) the father's name. There are, however, exceptions in which the name of a more noteworthy mother (Fitz Wymarch) or a parent's title (Fitz Count, Fitz Empress) was used instead. Such surnames were later created for illegitimate children of royal princes.[1]

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitz]Fitz - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

It is strange that this prefix is used by Normans, but not by Norse or by French. The official explanation is that it derives from Latin filius, meaning "son of". However this does not explain how come Normans all of a sudden decided to start using it. Especially when they already had de- as "of the, son of":

De: "of the": a Norman-French habitational prefix used by some of the most common Irish surnames among which are De Búrca, Le Brún, De Barra, De Cíosóg, Devane and de Faoite. 'De' historically has signaled ownership of lands and was traditionally therefore a mark of prestige.

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_name]Family name - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

So who were the Norman Fitzes? If we look at the Wiki page about familly names we see this:

-ić -vić -ović -ič -vič -ovič -ich, -vich, -vych, -ovich, -owicz: Croatia, Serbia, Montenegro, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Slovenia, Belarus, Poland, Slovakia, Ukraine, Russia, Republic of Macedonia (rare), occasionally Bulgaria. Yugoslav ex.: Petrović, means Petar's son. In Russia, where patronyms are used, a person would have two -(ov)ich names in a row; first the patronym, then the family name (see Shostakovich).

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_name]Family name - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

So in Central Europe among the western Slavs, the same people who were fighting on the side of the Harold Bluetooth and his descendants, who built first "Norman" castles, "Vić" means son of. This word is often pronounced by Germanic people as witz as in Clausewitz and was probably pronounced by the new Slavic Normans as "fitz".

Did this Slavic suffix become prefix when South Baltic "Norman" Slavs from the army of Harold Bluetooth, decided to change their names to be more "Norman" in line with the local fashion and real Norman "de-" was translated into Fitz? Probably.

What is really interesting is how strongly the Fitz surnames took root in Ireland:

Fitz: a Norman-French word derived from the Latin word filius ("son"). It was used in patronymics by thousands of men in the early Norman period in Ireland (e.g. fitz Stephen, fitz Richard, fitz Robert, fitz William) and only on some occasions did it become used as an actual surname, the most famous example being the FitzGerald Earls of Kildare. Yet well into the 17th and 18th century it was used in certain areas dominated by the Hiberno-Norman of Ireland in its original form, as a patronymic. The Tribes of Galway were especially good at conserving this form, with examples such as John fitz John Bodkin and Michael Lynch fitz Arthur, used even as late as the early 19th century. A number of illegitimate descendents of the British royal family were given surnames with this element: some of the illegitimate children of King Charles II were named FitzCharles or FitzRoy ("son of the King"); those of King James II were named FitzJames; those of Prince William, Duke of Clarence and St Andrews (later King William IV) were named FitzClarence. Note that "Fitzpatrick" is not Norman: it is actually a Normanisation of the Gaelic surname Mac Ghiolla Phádraig.

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_name]Family name - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

In later times, similar forms were coined for members of the English and British royal family, who historically lacked a surname, and particularly for illegitimate children of kings and princes (Fitzroy, son of the king; Fitzjames, son of the king James II of England; and FitzClarence, son of the Duke of Clarence). From this later use, it has been inferred that the name indicates illegitimacy, which was not originally the case. More generally, the prefix has been used to connote nobility as is the case in Anthony Trollope's 1862 novel Orley Farm which features the rakishly aristocratic figure of Lord John Fitzjoly.
The Irish surname FitzGerald is thought to derive from Gerald de Windsor, a Cambro-Norman nobleman whose son and grandson were involved in the Norman invasion of Ireland.
The Irish name Fitzpatrick does not indicate a Norman origin of the family; it is the translation into English of the Gaelic surname Mac Giolla Phádraig. Other surnames beginning "Mac Giolla" were made into "McGilli-" (e.g. McGillicuddy), but the Fitzpatricks claimed Norman heritage in a time when the Normans dominated much of Ireland.
Fitz is also a stand-alone German surname originating in the Palatinate region of Germany.

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitz]Fitz - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

Is it because "The Normans" and the local east coast "Irish" actually shared quite a bit of language and culture and genes? Was Norman invasion more like a reunion

?

dublin · Nov 11, 2013

How old is Crom Dubh?

To answer that i will first quote an article from theoretical structural archaeology blog:

Longhouse 6 from Olszanica in Poland [1] has a doorway 2.20m wide, and it is dated to 5000 BC. So what is that all about?

In 1976, an excavation at Bronocice in SW Poland uncovered parts of a pot with incised decoration depicting two carts with yokes.
[9]
The site was occupied during the Funnel Beaker or TBR culture phase, one of a complex group of cultures that succeeded the LBK in northern Europe, in the Fifth and Fourth Millennia BC.
Bones from the pit in which the pot was found gave radiocarbon dates of around 3635--3370 BC, which, as the excavators pointed out, is earlier than dates for pictograms of wheels from the Samarian Uruk Period.

There a two other main lines of evidence in this period, both from graves associated with the Baden culture that is found in central Europe in the period 3600--2800BC.[11]
In cemeteries like Budakalász on the Danube in Hungary, pottery models of carts have been found. The example, from Grave 177, was painted and is incised with zigzag decoration.
[12] Some models with handles, which may be drinking cups, have been found on the earliest Baden cultures sites like Boglarelle on Lake Balaton.
What was also found at Budakalász was a grave containing two humans with the bodies of a pair of cattle laid out at right angles to them. Double cattle burials occur in other Baden cemeteries dated to the middle of the Fourth Millennium.

It would clearly be unwise to argue for a cart shed in a late LBK building -- it simply does not fit with the other evidence. Irritatingly, it is not actually 'impossible', as the building is roughly contemporary with the earliest wheel-made pottery.
There are two important points about wheels and animal traction. Firstly, they are two separate technologies; and secondly, they are difficult ideas to keep secret [compared with metallurgy, for example.] We could also consider sledges, or some other form transport dragged by an animal. I have always tacitly assumed that the several hundred pieces of timber required for building a longhouse could be dragged by an animal, presumably an ox.

Theoretical Structural Archaeology

So first wheeled vehicles appear in the fourth millennium central Europe. But houses with wide doors and space wide and big enough for a car appear much earlier, a whole millennium earlier. The only explanation is that first cars or carts did not have wheels but sleighs.

Now here is a passage from a from folk tale "St Patric and Crom Dubh":

Before St. Patrick came to Ireland there lived a chieftain in the Lower Country1 in Co. Mayo, and his name was Crom Dubh...
When he used to go out about the country he used to send his two sons and his two mastiffs before him, and they announcing to the people according as they proceeded, that Crom Dubh was coming to collect his standing rent, and bidding them to have it ready for him. Crom Dubh used to come after them, and his trickster (?) along with him, and he drawing after him a sort of yoke like a wheelless sliding car, and according as he used to get his standing-rent it used to be thrown into the car, and every one had to pay according to his ability. Anyone who would refuse, he used to be brought next day before Crom Dubh, as he sat beside the fire, and Crom used to pass judgement upon him, and after the judgement the man used to be thrown into the fire....

St. Patrick and Crom Dubh

Crom Dubh had "a sort of yoke like a wheelless sliding car". This kind of description of Crom Dubh vehicle shows that the narrator clearly did not have an idea what that car could have been. Did whoever told the story new what the vehicle was and was that forgotten later? Or was even the first narrator constructing the story based on legends whose meaning was long lost and forgotten?

What kind of vehicle did Crom Dubh have? Well i can actually show you one:

This picture was taken about 10 years ago in south of Serbia in the mountains near the place where i was born. This is me (hi everyone ) sitting on an example of the most common means of transport in the area still to this day: "a sort of yoke like a wheelless sliding car". In this area mountain villages consist of houses strewn across the side of the mountain, so building roads is impossible.

Also even if there were roads connecting houses, local people would still have to get to their fields and forests. They would also have to be able to do that during the winter too, when the whole area is covered with over a meter of snow. The answer to this problem is sledge pulled by oxen. Here is another example from Serbia this time actually being used:

Sledge as means of transportation is perfectly suited for European climate and landscape. In early Ireland, with its hills, mountains, bogs, beaches and no roads, it would have been much easier to transport things using sledge pulled by oxen than using wheeled carts. To use wheeled carts you need hard dry ground, like desert or worm steppe or roads. Unfortunately no desert or worm steppe can be found in Ireland, and no roads were built in Ireland before mid 3rd millennium BC and even then there were only handful of them and they were probably ceremonial:

There is almost no evidence that large roads were constructed in Ireland during the Stone Age. However, a very large oval henge enclosure, thought to date from c. 2500 BC (the Neolithic period) may possibly have had an ancient roadway associated with it.

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_roads_in_Ireland]History of roads in Ireland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

So stone age people in Ireland used oxen pulled sledges for transport. So did Crom Dubh. Did sledges disappear from Ireland with the introduction of wheeled vehicles? I doubt it considering they are still used in Serbia today. But did Crom Dubh arrive on one of these sledges from Central Europe with first wheat farmers way back in 5th or 4th millennium BC? Probably, considering that he not only had sledge pulled by oxen, but he also brought on them the first wheat and the knowledge of wheat cultivation:

Using the magic artifacts the sons of Tuireann have gathered, Lugh leads the Tuatha Dé Danann in the Second Battle of Mag Tuireadh against the Fomorians. Nuada is killed in the battle by Balor. Lugh faces Balor, who opens his terrible, poisonous eye that kills all it looks upon, but Lugh shoots a sling-stone that drives his eye out the back of his head, wreaking havoc on the Fomorian army behind. After the victory Lugh finds Bres, the half-Fomorian former king of the Tuatha Dé Danann, alone and unprotected on the battlefield, and Bres begs for his life. If he is spared, he promises, he will ensure that the cows of Ireland always give milk. The Tuatha Dé Danann refuse the offer. He then promises four harvests a year, but the Tuatha Dé Danann say one harvest a year suits them. But Lugh spares his life on the condition that he teach the Tuatha Dé Danann how and when to plough, sow and reap.[11]

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lugh]Lugh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

Fomorians, Pomorians, Central Europeans from Pomerania, Pomorje, brought with them both the knowledge of "how and when to plough, sow and reap" and also Dabog, Hromi Daba, Crom Dubh, their main god whose fertility face was known as Crom Cruach, the god of bread.

dublin · Nov 11, 2013

Some people asked me this:

The case of the sled (or slipe) in Ireland for example, what ancient remains have been found to support your assertion?

This is what i wanted to ask Irish archaeologists if there are any present. But i would expect none to be found. I grew up around sledges like the ones on pictures. They can be made without any metal parts. This means that unless they sunk into some bog pit they would not be preserved through time. None were found in Serbian archaeological localities and these oxen pulled sledges have been in continuous use there probably since paleolithic times.

The line in the story of Crom Dubh that mentions "a sort of yoke like a wheelless sliding car" is so out of place that the reason it was preserved must have been because it was significant. Otherwise it would not have been retold without knowing the meaning of "a sort of yoke like a wheelless sliding car".

Another bit that sticks out in the chapter that i have quoted (and there are lots more in that story), is: "and his trickster (?) along with him". Irish word for trick is "cleas" and for trickster is "cleasaí" which is too close to Serbian word "klas" meaning "ear of wheat" and "klasje" or "klasovi" (pronounced klasye, klasovi) meaning "ears of wheat" to be ignored. Especially when the word for ear in Irish is "cluas" and word for ears is "cluasa"???

Was the actual chapter part of the original story about Crom Dubh (Cruach) bringing wheat to the people? And was the actual bit originally saying: "Crom Dubh used to come after them, carrying his ears of corn (wheat) with him, and he drawing after him a sort of yoke like a wheelless sliding car"?

Was the original "class", "cluas", "klasje, klasovi", "cluasa" meaning "ears of wheat, wheat" forgotten and later replaced with "clais", "cleasaí" meaning trick trickster? We know that it should have been wheat as Fomorians, the people who brough Crom Dubh (Cruach) are credited as people who brought wheat to Ireland. So I believe that here we have a very significant bit of history preserved in this story.

The reason why i am so confident that this is the meaning of this chapter is because everything else regarding Crom Dubh (Cruach), Lugh, Lughnasad points to Balkan origin of this cult. Particularly anything that has to do with the wheat season celebrations. I will elaborate this in next posts and things are going to become a lot clearer.

I don't believe this is outside of the box thinking really. Just thinking. I am joking of course. I have a huge advantage over Irish historians, which is that I posses knowledge of south Slavic languages and culture and archaeology of the Balkans, as well as Irish language and culture. So rally the difference is that i am probably the first to look at Ireland from the Balkans with ability to compare the languages and cultures to this extent. In that way you could say it is "outside of the box". But i still try to employ very conservative thinking and i am asking more questions than i am giving answers.

It's not going to be easy to find more reliable sources of information. But as i said before i believe there are jewels to be found here, but i need help digging. Anyone with any additional information on any of the topics touched by me is more than welcome to present them here.

dublin · Nov 11, 2013

Sleds or slipes and slide cars, were in use in Ireland up to the early C20th. Broadly speaking the Irish styles differ from the Serbian ones. It shows that slide carts were used in Ireland, so it is plausible that this is what the story refers to. Here i am adding two excerpts from the book "Irish Folk Ways":

Irish Folk Ways - E. Estyn Evans - Google Books

Did you notice how all the example are from the north, the land of cranogs which i already connected with the south Baltic in so many ways. Some of the types seem to be exact copies of the south Baltic ones.

What is very interesting about this is the conservatism of the rural substance farming life. What works gets used for thousands of years almost unchanged. You have an example of opanak and now sledge. I believe that these rural communities are equally conservative about their taboos, beliefs and customs as well as language. If you have a custom that you believe brings you good harvest, you will not abandon it even if official religion of the land changes. The example is Crom Dubh day and all the harvest rituals in Serbia which survived arrival of Christianity for centuries.

dublin · Nov 14, 2013

A fulacht fiadh (Irish pronunciation: [ˈfˠʊl̪ˠəxt̪ˠ ˈfʲiːə]; Irish: fulacht fiadh or fulacht fian; plural: fulachtaí fia or, in older texts, fulachta fiadh) is a type of archaeological site found in Ireland. In England, Scotland, Wales and the Isle of Man they are known as burnt mounds. They commonly survive as a low horseshoe-shaped mound of charcoal-enriched soil and heat shattered stone with a slight depression at its centre showing the position of the pit.
Radiocarbon dating indicates that the majority of fulachtaí fiadh were constructed during the mid to late Bronze Age[1] (c.1500- c. 500 BC), though some Neolithic examples are known. However, some were still in use up to medieval times.[2] They are the most common archaeological sites in Ireland, with over 4,500 recorded examples,[3] of which some 2,000 are found in County Cork. Permanent structures are rarely found near to fulachtaí fiadh, but small hut sites are common and it is unknown whether early sites were built by permanent settlements or nomadic hunters.[3]

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulacht_fiadh]Fulacht fiadh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

Function is still being debated.

The pokhodnaya banya (походная баня) or "hiking banya," is popular among the Russian military, mountaineers and people who travel for extended periods in harsh environments. It consists of a stone oven set up in a small makeshift tent. Hiking banyas are usually made near a lakeshore or riverbank where many big, round stones are available to build the banya's oven and there is plenty of cool water available for bathing. Large stones are made into a dome-shaped circular oven, one to four meters in diameter and a half to one meter in height so that there is space left on the inside to make a large fire. Firewood is burned for several hours in this improvised stove until the stones on the surface of the pile become so hot that water poured on them turns into steam. Around the pile, a space is tarped to form a small tent and the banya is ready when it becomes very hot inside and there is a lot of steam. Fresh veniks can be cut from nearby birch or oak trees and bathers can take turns cooling off in the ice-cold mountain water.

Banya (sauna) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

???????? ????????? ???? ?????? ?????? | Vasha-Banya

Instead of plastic you can use leather or branches.

The way the steam is created by overheating a pile of stones will create a large quantities of burned stone.

-%D0%B4%D0%BB%D1%8F-%D0%B1%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B8.jpg

The water is kept inside of the the wood or stone laid pit and was scooped and poured over the hot stones to produce steam...

This is one in use

These things are still used all over Russia.

Use this search to get Russian links to banjas:

https://www.google.ie/search?q=%D0%91%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%8F+%D0%BF%D0%BE%D1%85%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F&rlz=1C1SFXN_enIE500IE501&espv=210&es_sm=93&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=f6CEUpekC6q47AbX2oDYBA&ved=0CC4QsAQ&biw=1280&bih=815#imgdii=_

Question is How come they survived in Russia but not in Ireland? And where is the origin?

The Finnish sauna (pronounced 'Sow-na') is a substantial part of Finnish culture. There are five million inhabitants and over two million saunas in Finland - an average of one per household.[1] For Finnish people the sauna is a place to relax with friends and family, and a place for physical and mental relaxation as well. Finns think of saunas not as a luxury, but as a necessity. Before the rise of public health care and nursery facilities, almost all Finnish mothers gave birth in saunas.

The sauna in Finland is an old phenomenon[citation needed] and is difficult to trace its roots. Bath houses were recorded in Europe during the same time period, but Finnish bathing habits were poorly documented until the 16th century.[citation needed] Because of the years of habitation and variant rule by Russia and Sweden, it is possible that the sauna custom evolved from them. It was during the Reformation in Scandinavia that the popularity of saunas expanded to other countries because the European bath houses were being destroyed. Hundreds[when?] of years ago, when bathing was something to be done only rarely or never at all, Finns were cleaning themselves in saunas at least once a week.[citation needed]
One reason the sauna culture has always flourished in Finland has been because of the versatility of the sauna. When people were moving, the first thing they did was build a sauna. You could live in it, make food in the stove, take care of your personal hygiene, and, most importantly, give birth in an almost sterile environment. Unlike many other, more densely populated places in Europe, the availability of wood needed to build and warm the sauna has never been an issue. Another reason for its popularity is that in such a cold climate, the sauna allows people warmth for at least a short period of time. However, it is just as popular in the summer as in the winter.

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_sauna]Finnish sauna - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

So Finish saunas are probably of Russian origin.

The oldest known saunas were Finnish, made from pits dug in a slope in the ground and primarily used as dwellings in winter.

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sauna]Sauna - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

And all the other saunas in Scandinavia are of Finish origin. Meaning all saunas are of Russian origin....

Where did Irish fulacht fiadh then come from? Brought with invading solders from the north east? Like south Baltic? In Bronze age?

What is interesting is that word "banja" in Serbian means Bath and "banjati se" means to wash.

Banya or banja (Russian: баня [ˈbanʲə]; Macedonian: бања [ˈbaɲa]; Serbian: бања [ˈbâɲa]) can refer to a number of types of steam baths popular in Eastern Europe. In Russia, it refers to a particular local type of sauna. In the Republic of Macedonia and Serbia it is a mineral water spa, as, for example, the spa resorts such as Kežovica (Macedonia), and Vrnjačka Banja and Sokobanja (Serbia). Variants of this word in other Slavic languages usually refer to a bathtub (Slovene: banja), bathroom (Bulgarian: баня) and bathing in general.

Banya (sauna) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What is Very interesting is etymology of word banja:

From Proto-Slavic *banja.

banja - Wiktionary

From Vulgar Latin *bānea, *bānja, balnia, from Latin balneum, balineum (“bath, bathing place”).

Appendix

roto-Slavic/banja - Wiktionary

How can Vulgar Latin bānea come from balnia and balneum is a mystery. Also does anyone has any example of Vulgar Latin "bānea"?

From Ancient Greek βαλανεῖον (balaneîon).

balineum - Wiktionary

(5th BC Attic): IPA: /balané͜e.on/

Etymology uncertain. Attempts have been made to connect with βάλανος (balanos, “acorn”), but are semantically unconvincing. Probably Pre-Greek.

????????? - Wiktionary

So the root for Slavic banja is Vulgar Latin bānea which has root in Lating balneum which has root in Old Greek balaneîon which has no etymology in Greek.

Let me try to come up with etymology:

In Serbian Bel, Beli means white.

In Serbian Ban, Van means white. Svanuti = S Van uti = with white (light) be = to dawn, to get bright, to get white. Svanuće = Dawn

In Serbian nos means to carry.

In Celtic mythology, Bel, Belenos (also Belenus) was a deity worshipped in Gaul, Cisalpine Gaul, and Celtic areas of Austria, Britain and Spain. He is particularly associated with Cornwall, West Cornwall being anciently called Belerion, the place of Bel. He was the Celtic sun god and had shrines from Aquileia on the Adriatic to Kirkby Lonsdale in England.[1][2]

The etymology of the name is unclear. Suggestions include "shining one,"[3] "the bright one"[4] and "henbane god".[5]

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belenus]Belenus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

Belenos is bel + nos = white (light) + carry = bringer of light

In Irish bàn means white, Old Irish bán; Indo-European root bha@-, shine; Greek @Gfanós ( @G a long), bright; Sanskrit bhânù, light; further away is English bale (bale-fire).

MacBain's Dictionary - Section 3

"Banjati se" means to wash in Serbian. But in Irish it would mean to make your self white again which is the purpose of washing. This means the same as "beliti se" - to make yourself white, clean from dirt.

So "Greek" balaneîon literally means: a place where you make yourself "bel", white, clean...

"Vulgar Latin" bānea literally means: a place where you make yourself "ban", white, clean...

The archetypal ancestor of the Serbs is called Van, Ban and he is represented as white wolf. Remember B and V are interchangeable.

Slavic mythology mentions a deity which is in indissolubly connected with the wolf. That deity is Dažbog, God of the Sun and the son of Svarog, namely one of the group of Gods called Svarožić. Dažbog, like so many other deities, is theriomorphous and his animal form is a white, lame wolf...

There is another myth connected to the wolf, and this myth speaks of Dažbog's voyage to the Underworld, and his marriage to Morana, the Slavic Goddess of death. Namely, Morana and Dažbog had a son named Van, blinded by his mother, as a vengeance to Dažbog whom she had stopped loving. Van was thrown into a pit, but is rescued by Radgost, who takes him to Živa who heals his eyesight with the water of life. As punishment, Dažbog throws Morana onto a stake and, as she burns, she curses Van, turning him into a wolf. Van’s sister Poljelja learns that she can save her brother if she keeps silent for seven years – when this time passes, he will revert to his human form. Even though she goes through gruelling trials, Poljelja keeps silent even when she’s put on a stake, however, at that very moment, the seven years pass and Van turns back into a human, thus saving his sister from a certain death. Nevertheless, Van loses his divine powers and, as such, becomes a human being and, according to the legend, the ancestor of the Serbian people. We shall talk more about the Serbian cult of the wolf later, first we should end this depiction of the wolf’s role in Slavic mythology with a review of the non traditional systematization of Slavic paganism, the so-called Slavic Vedism of Yuri Miroljubov and Alexander Asov, and the place the wolf holds in this system...

?????? ?????????? ? ??????? ???? - The Wolf-totem animal of the Ancient Slavs

Book of Veles says:

Ne zaboravljamo naše običaje: peremo svoja tela i umivamo svoj duh u čistoj vodi živoj.

Do not forget our customs: wash our bodies and wash our spirit in clean living water.

http://www.ivantic.net/Ostale_knjiige/Velesova_knjiga.pdf

Bathing was a religious act for Slavs Arians closely connected with Sun worship. This is not surprising considering that both Sun and water bring whiteness.

Other popular names for this day are “bonfire” (Polish: sobótka), a name possibly derived from the day on which these festivities used to be held (sobota is Polish for “Saturday”) or from the ritual name given St. John’s fires, and “kupała”, which is probably derived from a word for ritual bathing. The traditions associated with this night go back to pagan times and are known all over Europe. St. John’s Eve falls just after the summer solstice and climaxes when the sun reaches its zenith to signify the longest day and shortest night. Strange things were believed to have occurred at that precise moment and strange powers were attributed to fire, water and plants. That evening, people would stray far from home and cultivated fields to gather around fires (where suitable kinds of trees were being burned), by lakes, along rivers or on hills. Herbs like artemisia and burdock would be thrown onto the fire in the belief that they had cleansing powers. ..... would dance around the fires singing love songs. Boys, and sometimes ....., would jump through the fire. Water also acquired peculiar properties on that night. It was said to “blossom” and that only St. John could make it safe to bathe in rivers and lakes. 24 June has been a critical day ever since. It used to be believed that bathing on Ivan Kupala Day washed away evil forces, endued with health and strength, and ensured good luck. Bodies, especially those of young people, became healthier and more beautiful and alluring. Such a bath guaranteed requited love, successful marriage and happy parenthood. Marriageable ..... wove garlands (a symbol of virginity) of field and garden flowers, tied them to slats to which they fixed candles, and then floated them in the water and observed closely. Floating evenly or being fished out by a boy they liked was a much desired omen as it signified love, impending marriage and long life. Becoming entangled in vegetation, however, meant remaining unmarried for at least another year. The worst possible omen was the candle going out or the garland sinking or capsizing. This foreshadowed trouble in love and life, unrequited love, spinsterhood, sadness and single-handedly having to raise a child born out of wedlock. Several customs associated with this day still survive. The magical aspect might have disappeared but the belief that bathing is only possible after St. John’s day is still with us.

Ivan Kupala Day - Easter Turks - Region Wielkopolska - a must see

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kupala_Night]Kupala Night - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

So what do you think, who invented Saunas and Baths in general, who gave them their name, who did Greeks got them from??? Is it possible that they came from Ireland and went to South Baltic first and then Balkans in Early Bronze age? Or was it the other way round?

Harap Alb · Nov 18, 2013

Similarities to Other Cultures.

What we have then is the record of a civilisation that flourished in Europe between 6,000 and 3,500 BC and which appears to have enjoyed a long period of uninterrupted and peaceful living. The 'Old European' Vinca pottery, artefacts and writing all show an immediately noticeable similarity to what was originally thought to be an earlier Ubaid Sumerian influence from the middle east. In addition, the Cycladian/Cretan cultures are suspected of having close close artistic and possibly religious connections with the Vinca. Both of these cultures appeared following the demise of the Old European Heartland, perhaps not so coincidentally, at the same time as several other important civilisations (Egyptian, Indus Valley, Western European, Maltese Etc) appeared in the prehistoric record.

Similarities in Romanian culture.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvSDR6oYXAQ]Romanian traditional art - a MILENAR tradition - YouTube[/ame]

Recent excavations at sites across Europe's biggest prehistoric civilization, the Vinca culture, point to a great degree of sophistication and a taste for art and fashion, archaeologists say. "According to the figurines we found, young women were beautifully dressed, like today's ..... in short tops and mini skirts, and wore bracelets around their arms," said archaeologist Julka Kuzmanovic-Cvetkovic. The Vinca tribe who lived between 5,400 and 4,700 BC in the 120-hectare site at what is now Plocnik knew about trade, handcrafts, art and metallurgy.

"They pursued beauty and produced 60 different forms of wonderful pottery and figurines, not only to represent deities, but also out of pure enjoyment," said Kuzmanovic. The findings suggest an advanced division of labour and organization. Houses had stoves, there were special holes for trash, and the dead were buried in a tidy necropolis. People slept on woollen mats and fur, made clothes of wool, flax and leather and kept animals.

The community was especially fond of children. Artefacts include toys such as animals and rattles of clay, and small, clumsily crafted pots apparently made by children at playtime.

dublin · Nov 18, 2013

Thanks Harap. Old European civilization has left its traces all over the world and i am trying to discover them in language and customs. But every other later civilization also left its traces and it is difficult to determine who left what. But it is fun trying to do it.

Here is more about banja which is ancient and dates from at least early bronze age. It potentially originated in Ireland and from there it spread to central and then southern and eastern Europe. Or it could be the other way round.

The least likely use for fulacht fiadh is cooking in water. Too much castle. And we have living examples of fulacht fiadh like facilities still in use in Russia as saunas all the time by everyone.

Some people were asking if Mega and Neolithic climate was several degrees warmer on average than modern day in Ireland and would this mean that Sauna's were unlikely use for fulacht fiadh?

If you look at the pictures from Russia, they are all summer time pictures at most autumn. No winter pictures at all. So Banja (Not a sauna) is used all year round for bathing.

Saunas or Banjas are great temporary dwellings as well. They have roof and stove and are basically fully functional dwellings. And they can become very quickly and easily permanent dwellings if you pile enough insulating material on the walls. They are documented as being used as dwellings during winter times in northern Russia and Scandinavia. They only become saunas if you pour water over stones.

The stone oven design is very interesting. It is a prototype of a brick storage heater. You heat up the stones and then they radiate heat. Then you reheat them and so on....Much more efficient then open fire. Because they have a cavity, they are great for baking and roasting too.

Compare this Banja oven design still used in Russia:

With these bread ovens still used in Serbia:

The same design just different material. Stone version is older and intermediate version is stone with clay used instead of mortar for linking stones and filling holes.

If you put a flat stone on top, then you can prepare food on it.

June at the cabin ? Part 6 | Laplander's Natural Lore Blog

The stone oven design in pictures is found in all early medieval Slavic houses and is so characteristic of Slavic houses that it defines them as such in archaeological sites. Funnily these ovens are also found in a lot of early Viking houses scattered all over the Atlantic coastline which razes the question of Slavic presence among the early Vikings. Houses with these ovens are found in early Viking Dublin as well.

fulachtaí fia had wood lined troughs. So one other possible use is for brain tanning (making buckskin). In that case the trough would be used for cooking skin in brain soup, which doesn't need to be too hot to work, just hot enough and the procedure doesn't last too long so you don't need constant stone insertion.

Braintanned buckskin is one of the oldest ways of turning a hide into leather. The process is long and hard, as anyone who has done it will attest, but the outcome is far better then any other leather. It is stronger then Carhartt yet softer then velvet.

Buckskin (leather) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here is how you can make bucksking using primitive tools available to our Cro Magnon ancestors:

without cooking in cold sub arctic climate

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eAnCwd1NYU]Making Buck Skin - Ray Mears Extreme Survival - BBC - YouTube[/ame]

with cooking in wormer climate

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgRngDtk7xA]brain tanning deer hides- modern braining - YouTube[/ame]

Combination of brain and wood tanning. You cook brain soup in the trough by heating the water using hot stones. Then you drop your skin in it, and rubb the soup into the skin while in the trough (remember water is not boiling). Then you hang it over the stove and smoke it...

How An Urban Abo Tans a fox Hide

I discovered this while researching ways of making leather cover for fire making equipment and cordage for bow fire drill.

The ingenious design of Banja (fulacht fiadh) structure is that it is a multipurpose and can be easily adopted to various uses.

The key to this versatility is the stove design.

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